Why aren't males interested in feminism? (category: rant)

[elfeminista]

This may seem to be a question just begging for a big shouted out,
"BECAUSE THEY BENEFIT FROM MALE SUPREMACY!" But I would like to hear any thoughts that people here might have on the subject.

To have to send 2500 e-mails per male person interested is a bit ridiculous.

[KatetheGreat]

For some, it's so deeply ingrained that it doesn't seem like a changeable thing. Some question whether mens ways really do women that much harm.
My boyfriend, who is also a feminist I might add, thinks it's simply because they don't want their porn taken away.

Apparently on youtube there are all of these "Men's Movement" or "anti-feminist" videos.

http://youtube. com/watch?v=zqSASu1Qqrg

http://youtube. com/watch?v=LYxJ8V_0ktw

http://youtube. com/watch?v=ECJsKrdfN7o&mode=related&search=

http://youtube. com/watch?v=GaF1dSDTw4k&mode=related&search=

and some girl replied. A proud anti-feminist.
http://youtube. com/watch?v=usS5vqGYokw&mode=related&search=

It actually embaresses me to watch her sing at the end..

Anyhow. the idea I always hear is "you're equal now - what are you bitching about?" Usually it's implied that not only do we get advantages with job attainment/recieving child support etc. we also have the added gift of our "feminine wiles" to use over men.

Barf.

[moderator's note: please, please, please do not directly link to youtube from here - it has a trackback link system. In the future pls. insert a space between the URL's like I have done for you. TY]

[gerry]

Because male identity is based in the subordination of women, and only a few men seem to question their identity.

Also, the feminist movement, as strong as it has been on some levels, has not yet created public institutions that men have been pushed to change around.

[Andrew]

Men are also hurt by the current system; not near like women are, though. But they don't recognize what is being done to them anymore than a lot of women really do. People are not encouraged to be analytical. But the damage goes hand in hand with the benfits they think they are getting.

[gerry]

Men are also hurt by the current system; not near like women are, though. But they don't recognize what is being done to them anymore than a lot of women really do. People are not encouraged to be analytical. But the damage goes hand in hand with the benfits they think they are getting.

Men are not oppressed as men. Whatever suffering men may go through has nothing to do with oppression, but is rather part of life itself, or because they are lower class (classism) and oppressed for that, or persons of color (racism) and oppressed for that. And, if they are at the bottom of the male hierarchy, they may not receive as many benefits as do men over them, but they do benefit greatly esp compared to women in their own class/race or group.

In other words, men are lucky to be men, which is why they don't support feminism except when, in most cases, pushed to it.

[elfeminista]

Gerry-
I agree with everything you said in your second post, and the first of your two sentences in your first post, but I did not completely get what you meant in your second sentence.

Also, the feminist movement, as strong as it has been on some levels, has not yet created public institutions that men have been pushed to change around.

I believe that you meant that the males would be pushed to conform themselves to the institutions, but it could also be interpreted as the males changing the feminist institutions around.(which I do not believe is what you meant). If you meant the first, I agree with that, and it is a very interesting statement, as those places would be where you could do outreach in the future.

Conected to your statement, I have found that some males who grew up in homes with a single parent (guess which one), are more likely to be interested in feminism and appear to me to be more passionate and genuine about it than others. Of course, this is only my anecdotal observation.

[Andrew]

Gerry:
I hear you. But though I might be wrong, I still think you did not grasp my point. Men are hurt by the system when they are socialized to unrealistic gender roles which work to deny them the development of their full humanity. That some men escape the system does not mean it does not inflict its damage on the rest, or that even those escape unscathed. But we agree men's situation compares with women's not at all.

[gerry]

Gerry:
I hear you. But though I might be wrong, I still think you did not grasp my point. Men are hurt by the system when they are socialized to unrealistic gender roles which work to deny them the development of their full humanity. That some men escape the system does not mean it does not inflict its damage on the rest, or that even those escape unscathed. But we agree men's situation compares with women's not at all.

To El--yes, you understood what i meant (that is your first meaning) thanks for agreement.

To Andrew, the roles lead to male identity, and thus to further advantages and to fuller humanity (men have the power to define what this is and do so). women are not included in the definition of what constitutes full personhood. i don't know if we can fully step outside this process of male identity, but if we can resist it pretty consistently, we may experience some troubles, to be sure, but i don't think good guys suffer from bad guys deeds, but rather profit from them in so many everyday ways. for example, i'm sure many men love the gratitude or credit we get from women for protecting them, yet protection is just the flip side of the attack. or how much we appreciate women's moral values when we know that to a large extent that we force ethical stances upone women (ones we may freely adopt or not) or force their ever-present smile in the same way.

[Andrew]

Gerry, I'm going to bow out while I ponder your comments at greater length. I still don't quite see that being forced into a role is good for men, bad for women, except that, as you say, there are compensatory benefits, but they come at a high price.
But again, women are so far on the short end of the stick, this seems a little petty. I would hope that men, some men, could see the advantages of coming out of the current system. maybe you understand this better than I do.

[gerry]

i wasn't so much disagreeing with you, andrew, as commenting on the subject.

a couple things 1) female roles are forced roles (and constantly forced in no uncertain terms) and male roles are inherited, so to speak. to me there can be no comparison between the two. 2) if we accept that both genders have roles, then the male roles have incredible latitude as compared with the female roles-(are imprisoning) and we can opt out of most or perhaps all of ours 3) for every privilege that we note that being male gives us there are at least 10 times that number we cannot even fathom. why? because dominance and power exist as such because they are made to appear SO NATURAL--FROM NATURE ITSELF. SO OUR ROLES=ADVANTAGES (except in some psychological sense---on individual, not social, basis)

[elfeminista]

Ok, I think that we have established that there is patriarchy, and that PHMT. If anyone has more input as to why males are not interested, It would really be welcome, otherwise I would like to continue the thread by asking, "How can we get more males interested in feminism?"

[elfeminista]

Just for the sake of clarification Gerry, I asume you mean "culturally inherited' and not biologicaly, geneticaly, "spiritualy" or in any way inherited by a "natural difference".-


I mention this because it may not be clear to others what you mean by "inherited".

[gerry]

Cultural, natch.

One way to get men interested is to insert one's pro-feminist consciousness in as many interactions with males as possible. I do it in the first 10 minutes (often extend it)of all my classes---call this the "real world time" to counter the ivory tower (also gets me fired) and often do the same in the course material itself.

also encourage self-education in sexism and racism and classism. reliance on the education System (in this country)is not enuf, and tends to be a bit passive (because that's a grades milieu and education itself is most often very controlled and patriarchal)

so encouraging an attention to these modes of oppression is what i recommend (i find my male students are very interested in discussing porn and prostituion, for example, because they are muddled about it and have never had a chance to discuss it at all, let alone in terms of principles by which to judge their relationship to it)

[Andrew]

I like that l;ast paragraph especially, Gerry. THe culture is so saturated with this stuff that a lot of young people take it as a given, but to the extent they think at all, or think about it at all, they are troubled and/or confused about it. A little positive reinforcement so they know they can question it and there is a case against it and they don't have to accept it can sometimes go a long way.

[gerry]

yup, andrew, so true. most of my students have been persons of color and, as such, i think a bit more open or troubled about these oppressive institutions.
and they do speak of being hit with opposing media messages about all kinds of sexual expression--which makes many of them want to get things straight (all of above is from male and female students)

btw, one thing they love to hear is that there is such a great great latitude in sexual frequency, and that what constitutes "having sex" for many is not limited by orgasm. (left out of their sex ed classes, it seems)

[elfeminista]

We all agree on this. My question for us is, how do we go from a very few males that desire change to organizing and implementing so that we can reach manymore people? Gerry is very well positioned in his work as a teacher, and that is fantastic, but esp for those of us who are not teachers or academics how do we go further? In the sixties, Women held demonstrations, printed flyers, made feminist theater, and agitated until it became a mass movement.

While discussions are great, we males should think about doing activism in a public way. The agency that we have can be very useful there .

Also feminism is about ways of thinking, not only modifying males' sexist and violent behavior and gaining more consideration for our sisters,(things which ere of course very important) as many men seem to think.In the end what the male supremacist model offers us is power over others. Needless to say this is why the planet is in the wonderful shape that it's in. Global warming, wars over oil, deforrestation, genocide, gynocide, boys 10 years old forced to fight in armies. pollution., name it.... all part of patriarchal insanity. We should let males know that feminissm offers us a real alternative to the patriarchal model. Many know so little about it that they think the oposite of patriarchy is matriarchy. I often say, " no the oposite of patriarchy is freedom".


We are not doing Women any favors by becomming involved in this movement. Women have done us a favour by creating a political answer to a wothless worldwide system.

Reading the words of Catharine MacKinnon, Sheila Jeffreys, Charlotte Bunch or Mary Daly, one sees a common thread in these very different people, all of whom came from the Second Wave years. The respect for the integrity and the autonomy of all.

Feminism is based in justice and not male megalomania. One thing that surprises me is the way in which men regard feminism even when they are sympathetic. For some reason men do not consider it a political-ethical-philosophical system of but "something else". Why? Because it is led by Women? This is something that we should let other males know . That *this* is a Movement for Humanity.

My question now is, are males ready to hear that?

[elfeminista]

While 'debating" ( I know, I know,..) with Jill B and pro-prostitution cohorts on their blog, they inadvertently turned me on to this feminist men's group and their manifesto.

English tanslation to the Argentinian feminist men's manifesto.



MANIFESTO: MEN FOR THE ABOLITION OF PROSTITUTION
To all the men for the equality between men and women

We, men for the abolition of prostitution question the traditional model of masculinity, based as it is on the ideas of control, domination and rejection of human feelings. We affirm in favor of a society free of MALE SUPREMACY and discrimination. For that reason we see prostitution as a manifestation of sexual oppression. Therefore, in the debate on the subject we want to contribute our point of view:
- We defend that the sexuality must take place in a plane of freedom, of equal and mutual consent, free of hierarchies, domination and commodification.
- We denounce prostitution as a modality of sexual oppression for the prostituted people, nearly all women and girls, and agree that it contributes to perpetuate violence and male supremacy and that this violence is accepted socially.
- We decry that the sexual education of many is based on the pornography, which trains men with themes of sexual violence reproduced in prostitution.
- For us the “client”, the "prostitutor" is the main person in charge of the prostituted person because with his purchase she allows that there be women who can be sold and that this paradigm contributes to generating concepts of domination of men over women
- We state that legal regulation, offers little guarantees for the prostituted, and benefits the Mafias and criminal organizations dedicated to prostitution, contributes to its extension and to its social acceptance, as well as favors the existence of child prostitution.
- We affirm that at the present time there exists an almost absolute tolerance on the part of politicians, judges and forces of security in our country towards all those that participate in the business of sex and that that contributes to its extension and social acceptance.
- The Dutch model of legalization of prostitution has not contributed to the disappearance of prostitution, rather to its increase. When combat is warranted to make something disappear we must not legalize it. The example of Sweden where for 4 years the abolitionist model has been applied, prostitution and the traffic of women have plummeted.
- We state clearly that affirmations of the type “without prostitution there would be more violations”, “is the oldest profession of the world”, “it is the only way to have sexual relations for many people” are completely unacceptable and offensive. We men we do not have uncontrollable and uncontrolled sexual desires because of which, without prostituted women we may end up raping. That type of argument tries to justify the power relation that underlies prostitution and simply looks to defend the rights of sexual predators.
- We rejected the accusations of “moralism” and “conservatism” that the abolitionist position is attacked with. yes we have morals, but our abolitionism comes from A FEMINIST ANALYSIS and a desire to end sexual violence against women. On the other hand, our positions do not have anything to do with the prohibitionism, we do not try to penalize the prostituted Woman or to force her to leave it. The abolitionists try to apply social programs of aid, alternatives and labor reintegration which will be available when those desireing to do so will want to change their situation.
- For us the only ones who deserve punishment are the dealers in Women (who deal with the women like sexual merchandise), the PIMPS (that remove benefit from the sexual operation and oppression) and in last instance the “clients” by the use and “objectification” of the body of Woman. We do not see crime in the sale of the body on the part of prostituted Women, but in the purchase of the women rather we consider that because of that purchase Women are reduced to mere merchandise at the service of the desires of men, and subject to the power relations that arise from the commercial relation and "who pays".
- We have come to the conclusion that masculine sexuality and the masculinity must be questioned by us ( in order to to be able to approach relations with the women in a situation of equality). What makes men believe they have the right to buy women? Clearly the “client” does not aspire to have an egalitarian relation with the woman in the sexual scope but rather one which is based on domination.

Let us agree that all this is is due due for a reformulation, and JUST AS THE WOMEN DID we must rethink our social script and the meaning of masculinity to give to an answer adapted to the present situation, as we are in need of creating a state of equality between man and woman.

For that reason, we are against the legal regulation of prostitution, by opposing a legitimation and normalization of this form of sexual violence, with it's comparison of woman with mere merchandise. We feel strongly that that political actions must go directed of urgent way towards:
- To eliminate the conditions that make possible and favor prostitution, which will be achieved by thorough policies of equality accelerating the fight against sexism.
- Campaigns of prevention, education and consciousness raising on the subject, ** insisting to the men not to buy sexual services.**
- To immediately persecute all the modalities of PIMPING, intermediaries or facilitators of the non consent of the prostituted person, in accordance with the Agreement of Nations United for the Repression of Trata de Personas and the Operation of the Other people's Prostitution of 2 of December of 1949,
(translators note: I am not familiar with this treaty but it is clearly an anti-trafficking law)

This is an existing law and as we assumed this when ratifying this document, enforcement is important.
- Campaigns of sex and conventional education from a perspective of the egalitarian, scientific and MALE SUPREMACY FREE topics.
- To increase the dedicated resources to undo the prostitution networks
- To create an ethical code that dissuades the mass media from publicizing prostitution.
- To increase the resources destined to the dismantling of the prostitution networks that operate in our country which deal in Women.
- To fund plans towards the social and labor reintegration of prostituted women that want to be free and free and to leave their situation. To offer labor options to prostituted Women for their social re-insertion.

We consider that, although homosexual prostitution has characteristics different from heterosexual prostitution, it is also a form of sexual oppression. For that reason, we call to the heterosexual and homosexual men to commit themselves in an active way to fight against prostitution. As the main clients of prostitution men have the responsibility to generate the conditions for it's disappearance: Without men ready to pay, there will not be prostitution.

MEN, WOMEN AND MEN ARE NOT MERCHANDISE, YOU MUST NOT BUY THEM! BY DOING THIS YOU CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR OPPRESSION.

[sunnysmiles]

Hey, what site is this from?

[elfeminista]

http://hombresabolicionistas.org/tiki-view_articles.php

http://hombresabolicionistas.blogspot.com/

[Jimmy H.]

(...) the Agreement of Nations United for the Repression of Trata de Personas and the Operation of the Other people's Prostitution of 2 of December of 1949,
(translators note: I am not familiar with this treaty but it is clearly an anti-trafficking law)

It is the "Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Persons and of the Exploitation of the Prostitution of Others". The text is on the CATW website:
http: //action.web .ca/home/catw/readingroom.shtml?AA_EX_Session=fa0fc288fc9be68cff9ba04e38f15065&x=16703

It is also downloadable as a Word document:
http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/1949Conv.doc