Poledancing

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Poledancing

Postby Army Of Me » Thu May 18, 2006 3:02 am

(edit 21May'06) http://www.sfactor.com/index.*** (please copy and paste this url into your browser and type asp to replace the asterisks - thanks - just read the info about posting links that can be directly tracked back to the source)

This organization was featured on Oprah a few years ago but I see now that the Oprah feature/plug has been removed from the s factor site- well, I couldn't find it. I guess maybe Oprah perhaps had it removed after the recent appearance of Ariel Levy.

Most of the poledancing schools in this country used the clip from Oprah featuring this organization as a plug to help promote the ethos of "empowering" women thru being nothing more than a sexually stimulating thing for men to wank off to or to fuck. Gee, book me in now. (I don't know if the schools in the uk still use the oprah endorsement as I haven' looked in awhile - I was involved in the poledance industry for a while - but every time some celeb mentions anything about poledancing, they all jump on it and use it over and over in their advertising til you wanna puke).

Please get your bucket ready for vomiting.

Note the pre-teen class.

Don't you just love the overall tone of this site as conveying that they are the ultimate answer to life, love and the universe, and how it will change your life forever?

OK gotta go order some thongs and stripper heels from the s factor shop for my teenage daughter to practise in and feel empowered.
Last edited by Army Of Me on Sun May 21, 2006 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rich » Thu May 18, 2006 1:11 pm

BBC axes pole dancing

By DEREK ROBINS
Sun Online

The BBC has been forced to axe a celebrity pole dancing show after protests from women’s groups.

Zoe Ball had been due to strut her stuff in Strictly Pole Dancing for the Sport Relief charity event in July.

Denise Marshall of the Poppy Project, a group which helps women trafficked into prostitution, said: “Despite celebrity advocates promoting pole dancing as harmless fun, we must not forget that it has inextricable links to the sexual exploitation of women.”

A BBC spokesman added: “This idea was one of several that we were considering and will not now be developed further.”

Other names being lined up for the show were rumoured to include newsreader Natasha Kaplinsky and GMTV’s Fiona Phillips.




What do you think? Would you have watched Strictly Come Pole Dancing?

This is ridiculous.

How can you say that this is the exploitation of women when it is the men that are the ones paying to watch some women spinning around on a pole?

Perhaps these people need to stop and think about this for a second. Who is really being exploited in pole dancing clubs? The women who pay a fraction of what they earn in the night to perform? Or the men that think they have half a chance of romance?

If these girls can earn a safe and good living doing this, then more power to them!

Lee Anderson


This could have been the greatest show! Our country is far too PC these days.
Name Supplied


Well done BBC. Morals and manners are at an all time low in this country, due to many elements of the media.
Name Supplied


I currently attend pole dancing lessons for exercise and fun and think it’s fantastic.

I was really looking forward to this show. I think people who have never been to a lesson based on fun and fitness cannot really give fair comment. Comparing this to the pole dancing for money in clubs is unrealistic.

Come on Britain, have some fun for once!!!!

Kirstin Dand


I am fed up with others telling what is good for me.

It is about time the great British public was left to decide for itself.

The women who were going to be on the programme had surely put themselves forward for it. If they enjoy what they are doing - then who it is harming?

If the women’s groups didn't want to see it, then simple switch off!

Viv


Why cancel this show? I thought it had great potential for some good harmless fun entertainment. They will be fully clothed, so what is the problem?

If women want to pole dance it is up to the individual. The women who complained about this show should get a life, and they might have some fun instead of spoiling ours!



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Postby dragonfly » Thu May 18, 2006 3:19 pm

The women who were going to be on the programme had surely put themselves forward for it. If they enjoy what they are doing - then who it is harming?

If the women’s groups didn't want to see it, then simple switch off!


Who are they harming?!

Seriously???!

Any man watching doesn't care if Sally enjoys dancing on a pole, if it makes her feel good, or even empowered. As soon as he sees something like that, he's reducing Sally to her parts, completely eliminating any kind of personality or individuality Sally has. Her female body parts are being objectified, thus ALL our female bodies are being objectified.

This is harming ALL of us.

It's not that we "women's groups" don't want to see it. Trust me, the program was never turned on in the first place. We just don't want to have to suffer the concequences of some other people's ignorant actions.

I know women are smarter than this...why do so many of us believe that we're "empowered" by something, just because someone says it is as a marketing ploy? What is it about immitating a desperate, mindless, identity-less, pole dancer that makes you feel good about yourself?

I'm certainly not one to blame the oppressed for their own oppression, but sometimes I really wish more women would refuse what society throws in our faces and actually think for themselves for once.
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Postby oneangrygirl » Thu May 18, 2006 4:09 pm

In Nazi work camps, they posted the slogan Arbeit Macht Frei - Work Makes You Free.
In Orwell's 1984, one government slogan was Freedom is Slavery.
So today the media slogan is Stripping Empowers You.
It's all propaganda. It's all crap.
I guess some slavery feels like freedom.
-Wembley Fraggle
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Pole Propaganda

Postby Army Of Me » Fri May 19, 2006 12:24 am

The Sun newspaper, if you don't live in the uk (well, you can see it and it's ethos online), has been around for years. It was the first tabloid daily mainstream paper to have a topless woman everyday featured on page 3 - hence the name "page3 girl". When I came to this country 20 odd years ago, I was utterly speechless when I saw this paper and it's totally trashy and misogynistic attitude to women, and also the fact that it was available for all to buy. Children grew up with page 3 and the sun.

For example, there would be the page 3 pic, and then next to it, totally unrelated would be a story about rape. Of course the tone of the rape story would be of righteous indignation, but you see what they were doing. The also have and had cartoons where women get their clothes off at any ridiculous excuse.

No, I didn't buy the paper, my husband bought it early on in the marriage, but not for long as I told him I wouldn't have it in the house. It was one of the few times I stood up to him and he concurred. I can honestly say I have never bought that paper and it'something I'm proud of. Quite a few papers over here now have copied and taken further (the sport *vomit* for example) the ethos started by the sun.

The reason women think that poledancing is empowering is, from childhood, the message is driven home via media that the only value a girl has is in her looks. Therefore, setting this as the standard will encourage her to only feel empowered by being and looking sexy. CREATE THE MARKET, THEN YOU CAN JUSTIFY THE DEMAND.

If culture put value and emphasis on brains, wit and personality, well, women would feel empowered going to med school and becoming brain surgeons, or becoming comedians, or becoming university lecturers.

Again, early training and brainwashing for voluntary sexual slavery is what the "sun", male-dominated media and culture promote to girls.

This editor of this paper is now a woman, but the page 3 mentality of this country is now so much a part of the culture, that she has to go along with keeping it, despite people asking her (myself included, sent numerous emails) to please, finally, alright already for fux sake, it's 2006, take the fucking thing out yeah?

But the actual page 3 pic in the paper is now just a drop in the ocean as you can now have any page 3 lovely texted to your phone, and never mind all the other stuff that technology has allowed to proliferate. But still, taking it out of the hard copy paper would be sending a message. I guess she wants to keep it in the paper so all the guys who don't have internet access can make absolutely sure that they have their daily wank fodder fix.

So.....to tie in the poledancing issue - good on the bbc for listening to women.

The sun's published feedback on this story is of course going to be heavily weighted in favor of the pro-polers, bearing in mind it's philosophy (that's too good a word for trash but you see what I mean). Media has the power to do this - only publish the opinions that perpetuate the brainwashing of mainstream culture, and in turn, mainstream culture thinks everyone thinks this way, and the cycle begins again. (I'm not sure that is precisely how I wanted to word what I wanted to say but I hope you understand.)

I was involved in the poledancing industry but never ever claimed to anyone that I was empowered. Quite the opposite. I made a point of telling the few people I did tell, that I was merely trying to beat a system that was working against women. I was not in this industry for long, as I could not reconcile in my conscience the way it was being marketed to women. The classes I attended used the "softly softly" approach, telling women that you don't have to be a stripper to enjoy poledancing, but would then proceed to demonstrate how a stripper would do a move. Ulitmately, many would no doubt end up showing their genitals to some strange guy many times each night if they decided that they wanted to try working in a club. Many of the schools are just fronts for agencies.

The comment about women making a lot of money, well you don't many times. You have to pay a house fee and it's a real hustle to get that back and then make a profit. Many dancers take drugs, smoke, and drink a lot to cope with the job.

The girls that do make a lot of money do so because they fit into the parameters of a certain "look", so that's not true empowerment is it? No, you don't have to be exceptionally beautiful, but the shelf-life is not long and the burn-out rate is fairly high. Many girls do enjoy the work if they are top-end dancers, but when the big four-0 looms, they freak. That's when some have the idea that they will teach. But now everyone is trying to do it and the competition is fierce, so the marketing is getting more aggressive, and yes, I'm afraid that women are buying it.

I'm not saying all the men are horrible, but many are and they get the wrong message about women, which they then carry into normal life.

There is now a glut of dancers too so that makes it harder to make money - due to the heavy marketing of poledancing, the promotion of the career of "glamour" in whatever form, and the pornification of culture, many girls are going into this industry as they have been primed and ready from childhood, and de-sensitised to naked women being exposed for all to see. In their heart of hearts though, they know it's not right.

The irony is, you don't have to be a fantastic trickster on the pole to make money.

I'm sure I could say much more but that's all for now ya'll.
Last edited by Army Of Me on Sat May 20, 2006 2:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby SaltyC » Fri May 19, 2006 5:49 am

that makes a lot of sense,
Apologists claim that women make so much money stripping, but it's an exaggeration. The clients spend a lot of money but that doesn't mean the women get it all. But I never knew anyone who got rich stripping, or full-fledged prostituting either.

A long time ago I did some "work" as a dominatrix. One weekend I made a lot of money ($450), but that was the most I ever made. Some nights I made zilch. True, some women can make good money, but it's not steady and you really have to hustle. And hustling is gross, it's pretending to flirt, compliment, act like he's so cool, lie, etc. Is it any wonder women in the sex industry have such a low opinion of men?

Of course strippers brag, just like gamblers brag, you always hear of the winning streak but you don't hear how much they lost. And the money is always the main justification.

I think people who say that strippers make a lot of money are really saying they make more than a woman should. In the video games industry (my current profession) you hear it from men who make 200,000 a year or more that the strippers make so much money, yeah right, they don't make as much as you do, pal, and you get to be yourself at work, you don't have anybody in the world sizing up your genitals.

And it leads nowhere, the longer you stay in it the sadder you'll be. After you can't pretend to look 18 anymore you have to do grosser things to make money. There is a market for broken-down hookers, I knew one well when I lived in New Orleans. She was a basket case. I knew a few actually, they always look to be about 20-30 years older than they are. And from all those years of hustling they have no compassion for anyone. This one woman I know worked in a divey strip club and she got a young woman new in town to work there with her. Soon they were living together, shooting dope. Then, the young woman died of an overdose and the older one was driving the young one's car around town. Nothing changed. I never knew a hooker with a heart of gold.
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Postby Army Of Me » Fri May 19, 2006 6:35 am

Yes - and something that's never even talked about amongst the dancers in this country, even with the more relaxed laws on prostitution, is the fact that a lot of them (dancers) do sell sex. It's illegal in clubs to even touch the girls or proposition them, but it does go on. So there is this parallel universe going on which everyone pretends is not there - it's bizarre. A lot, not all, of the dancers are quite vocal in their hatred of men (not to their faces of course) due to the enormous strain,as you say, of the hustling and pretending to think they (the men) are god's gift. Every job has it's annoying factors I guess but really.

I picked up a guy one night in a club no prob and that was not even working as a dancer. I didn't go there that night for that purpose, but ended up making quite a bit of money. If I had made it a habit at this club, I would have been banned, but you get my point.

On the continent, a lot of clubs are just brothels really but I've not been to any, just heard of them. If you work in one of those you are most likely a traffiked women and/or under pimpy male control.

I have known dancers who have worked in Japan (you can pretty much bet that they were hookers too -goes with the territory). That culture is really bad as far as women are concerned with their violent manga comics specifically about abusing women. They have women-only train carriages as apparently the groping on crowed trains was out of control - I read this a few years ago. Also, apparently I read about clubs where the "hostesses" dressed up like office workers so the men could act out their groping fantasies.

Anyway, I digress. One of the things I found disturbing about the so-called new, "let's make it above-board -let's make stripping and poledancing a fun and happy, oh-so-jolly, get-fit activity" so disturbing is that when marketing it to women, the dark side is never mentioned. And it should be absolutely. But no one can though can they, as this would be admitting that they may have been a hooker, or at least one step away from it. If a man thinks he can buy you after you tantalize him, he'll offer you a lot of money and if you're rent needs paying.....

They say poledancing can be for any size and age, but if you want to make money, that's a lie. You can't be too ugly, too fat, have cellulite or be too old. Every part of your body will be scrutinized by the other dancers and the men.

The media will not give a voice to this issue as they only want smiley happy sex industry stories.

Yes you're right about the sex-selling, the money does not average out well, and even top level hookers have to plan for getting older, that's if they have their heads screwed on. But many start out saying "I'll do this til the next bill is paid/university is finished, then give up" but they end up doing it for good. Also, your mind gets lazy if you aren't careful. In this country, you can still make money as a mature escort (I did) as there is a market for well-spoken, well-groomed women. But it is a niche market.

I did not go into selling sex until I was well past, well I won't say how old, so it's not as if I had neglected any skills - I had to leave my job for health and other reasons, and decided to try it for awhile. Men had been hitting on me all my life and coercing me into sex so I thought I would be smart and make this work for me. I was lucky in that I had autonomy, was IT literate, could control who I wanted to see mostly. But there were some dangerous men too and really weird ones. I do find though that now I find relationships with men nearly impossible due to what I have seen and experienced. It's ok, I knew this would happen before I made the decision to go into prostitution - my relationships with men were always bad anyway so it's just as well.

OK - too much info or not enough? I hope this has not upset anyone, but some of the people who only come here to read may find this useful - just using this forum to relay experiences is in itself a form of activism if it helps someone reading this.
Last edited by Army Of Me on Sat May 20, 2006 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby delphyne » Fri May 19, 2006 6:50 am

One of the things I found disturbing about the so-called new, "make it above-board -let's make stripping and poledancing a fun and happy get-fit activity" so disturbing is that when marketing it to women, the dark side is never mentioned. And it should be absolutely. But no one can though can they, as this would be admitting that they may have been a hooker.


I think that's the point - keep women in the dark until they are so far in that they can't get out. They'll know what's being done to them but as everybody else still hasn't got a clue they'll imagine everything is fine so the women that need help won't get help.

I don't know if I'm making any sense, but innocence like that can be really dangerous. I once spent a summer in San Francisco when I was a student, and I was looking for a job and was getting quite desperate when I saw an advert for "hostesses" in Nevada. I don't know what the hell I thought it was but I phoned them up and the woman on the other end of the line must have just thought I was some idiot English person without a clue and put me off. It wasn't until a few years later that I realised that I'd probably phoned up a brothel.

I also saw Ice-T a few months back on TV boasting about how he used to be a pimp. He said when he told women about this later they'd "tease" him how he couldn't turn them into whores and what was his trick and how whatever it was he wouldn't be able to do it to them. I guess we all know what tricks pimps use, but a lot of women don't or don't want to think about it (until sometimes it's too late).
Last edited by delphyne on Fri May 19, 2006 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby delphyne » Fri May 19, 2006 6:54 am

It's not too much info, BTW, Army of Me. What you and Salty are talking about is the reason why we're all here.
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Postby MaddyH » Fri May 19, 2006 10:47 am

Thank you for that statement delphyne. I am so glad I finally found people who feel this way. It's been a long time coming. I needed to know that there are other human beings out there who know what this does to people. I was a stripper. A lie I told myself was that I was in control. I am in control of his feelings toward me. I can make him feel excited. That was a lie I told myself.

Thank you all for being here. I need people like you in my life to remind me that these feelings are not figments of imagination. That I am not over-reacting, like many have tried to convince me of. Thank you for being here.
The emotional, sexual, and psychological stereotyping of females begins when the doctor says, "It's a girl." ~Shirley Chisholm
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Hi Maddy

Postby Army Of Me » Fri May 19, 2006 11:12 pm

Hi Maddy - your words touched me - I have read some of your other posts. Your words sound very similar to what I initially said to oag when I emailed her after finding her site - then she directed me to this forum.

It sounds like you too have had a wake-up call and hopefully there will be many more like the people on this forum soon.

Please keep reading the posts and info on this board and other places you come across. You'll definitely not feel alone (I too felt alone in my feelings - this is exactly what the "forces that be" are hoping will keep happening - but if you feel that strongly, the truth will out somehow and it's inevitable that others too feel the same - you just have to work a little to find them - that's where the internet is good.)

I have not been using this forum for long either but have found that it helps me to offload issues, while at the same time, hopefully helping others, as others have helped me on this site. It brings out suppressed anger with the things I write about sometimes, but that's a good thing.

Good on ya girl! :lol: :D
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Postby Army Of Me » Fri May 19, 2006 11:37 pm

"In Nazi work camps, they posted the slogan Arbeit Macht Frei - Work Makes You Free.
In Orwell's 1984, one government slogan was Freedom is Slavery.
So today the media slogan is Stripping Empowers You.
It's all propaganda. It's all crap."
(Hope this quote box thing works - no I did it wrong. And sorry admin for all the edits.)

Yes oag, and the first 2 slogans were not gender-specific - this is what's scary about the brainwashing of today.

And delphyne, your remark about innocence being dangerous, yes it makes perfect sense. It's dangerous to the innocent and advantageous to the pimps and traffikers.

The whole point is that the porn/stripper merchants have insidiously manipulated their strategy so that women believe porn is ok, they have made them belieive it means taking their own "sexuality" into their own hands (girl-power - not woman power we note), and then hey-ho presto, who better to convince other women that porn, and all it's associations, is ok, than another woman? Thus the denial cirlcle widens and widens. "All those other women seem ok with it cuz they aren't saying anything and all the mags think it's marvellous, must be something wrong with me, so I'll keep my mouth shut". Get it? So, a lot of the other women are either keeping their mouth shut because they don't want to seem "subnormal", or the one's that aren't quiet are the ones who have bought the lie. If you do say something, you have "issues" and low self esteem.

And of course there is the threat of male retaliation - it's astonishing how they react so strongly to speaking out against these issues.

Yes ladies, anorexia and being thin is SO 10-years-ago- now you can have so much FUN being girly, striving and working to keep your body toned and buffed, nails perfect, smile perfect, hair perfect, skin perfect, make-up flawless, spend ages shopping because fashion is designed to confuse and make you spend as much as possible, spending all your money (don't even think about saving any) and energy to look like a stripper or a hottie from a music video, have a boob job so your man won't stray, even if you work in an office, then go out and spend more money to become even more empowered by learning to strip for your man. Not enough money? Could always do a side-line in selling your hottie-bottie. It's evil.



I'm just gonna keep on about this so be warned.
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Postby SaltyC » Sat May 20, 2006 6:58 am

Keep on, Army Of Me, keep on!
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Postby sunnysmiles » Sat May 20, 2006 7:29 am

I entirely missed this thread - but I just can't thank you enough for posting your experiences - it really opened up my eyes about all the things that really take place. I hope that all of us can really work together on this, with all of your insights Armyofme, Salty and Maddy - I think we can really 'fight' against all this 'sex-work is great' BS. I really am appauled by academics/scholars/activists who neglect the words of 'sex-workers' when they say that their work HARMS them.

This collective picking and choosing of stories is just devastating, to chose stories that make sex-work look good at the expense of many unhappy workers is completely sick.

I hope with time people will listen to stories such as yours.

Thank you again for your honest insight and sharing. BIG HUGS across the oceans to all of you!
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Edited post - possibly triggering info on prostitution

Postby Army Of Me » Sat May 20, 2006 9:39 am

I have edited this post a bit and it is a bit more blunt about aspects of prostitution - possibly triggering.

Still haven’t quite figured out how this quote box works.

sunny thanks for the feedback - any further stories I will put in the private section as many men get off on prostitution stories - Maddy, you too if you really need to off-load. Don’t post anything graphic in public. This is a site for addressing and talking about porn, prostitution and how it all blurs together but be selective as to where you post. I will post more things in the public boards so that the people who only read can be informed, but anything I think will be remotely perverted into a sex turn-on will be posted privately.

Further to your comment sunny, I should say that the academics and scholars who selectively pick positive stories are possibly trying to protect the women whose only choice is to sell sex – in other words a certain amount of women would starve if they didn’t sell sex. Academics are good at parroting facts and statistics, but you need to experience the industry in the front-line for yourself to have any real insight, and paradoxically, you are unlikely to have to do this if you are an academic. Maybe they should academize (is that a word?) about what to do for the lower income women generally make.

So...At one stage, I remember thinking that if I hadn’t had my body to sell, I would have lost everything I had worked so hard for. I couldn’t work in a normal job due to being ill. I remember thinking how easy it was to sell my body, and how much fairer it seemed to get something back for the physical act of sex, after years of having my emotions ripped apart on top of the men getting sex from me, and then just tossing me aside like a piece of meat.. (I had used a high-profile adult chat room for a few years - this actually paves the way for women to become prostitutes but that's another topic.) At one point I was feeling quite positive & powerful about my career, that at last, I was the one pulling the strings, no emotional investment, and the money. But that doesn't last long.

It gets to the point (for me anyway) where the clients start to dry up, particularly if you are older, and if you work from your own home, the stress of the neighbors starting to talk is almost overwhelming. That’s when you have to back off or stop, or go to work for someone else where the control is out of your hands. Plus, it's not something you can quantify, but it starts to feel like you've sold your soul along with your body - hence the disassociation during sex.

I’m sure there are top market girls out there who have not reached the point of desperation yet who will tell you how great the job is. These are the ones who are interviewed and published as someone mentioned, before they have become disillusioned, cynical, traumatised, and numerous other conditions. (Edit - And no, I am in no way trying to glamorize prostitution by saying this.) They are still young, rolling in money ( Edit - that money is a buzz, yes, but does not last forever - the feeling is a false sense of security - prostitution is a sliding scale into drug addiction, mental health problem, other health problems and PTSD problems - even if you start at the top, you'll not stay there - guaranteed).There are probably women who don’t make so much money but are just glad to be able to buy food and pay bills. But one day, reality will hit. And maybe they will be able to speak in forums such as this. But they will have to learn for themselves. The smart ones get out at the right time. But you still have a nasty taste in your mouth (so to speak) of men’s attitude, and any man you meet after your career will be mistrusted, which I have found has damned any relationship from the start.

I also remember thinking that if culture is slowly manipulating a lot of women into looking, dressing and acting like whores, that it would slowly dawn on women what was happening i.e., they were whores giving sex away for free. The twist on that would be that this would backfire and the free whores would start charging. Or maybe they would just be angry enough to stop having sex with men period. I dunno, I think too much sometimes lol.

I just don’t seem to be able to sum up in a few sentences the issues I’m trying to tie in.

All this talk about the techniques and mechanics of sex and how women are supposed to be happy with a dildo, well maybe some are, but all most women want is someone who loves them and cares for them, and yes, a great sex life. But porn makes men emotionally numb and encourages them to only think about keeping their dicks see-sawing up and down - hard-on, then sex of whatever sort to addreess hard-on, then more porn, another hard-on etc. Porn shows men things that they may not otherwise have seen, makes them think things that are cruel to women, and they see bodies that don’t look like their wives/partners. If they can’t get "it" (whatever perversion porn has planted in their heads) at home, they will go elsewhere, and if they can get away with not paying, many will, by using adult chat rooms. And if all else fails, and they can't get it for free, they will see a prostitute. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this is the truth.

Anyway, this pornified culture creates so much insecurity for women that they keep feeling like they have to up the ante with trying to look like the ultimate sex goddesses from the internet porn or maxim or whatever crap their partners read, and will do anything in the sack, just to keep their man from straying. And they feel they must pay a lot of money to keep themselves in tip-top whore- standard condition. (Keeps women from being financially better off - they make less money, but have to spend more on staying "f**k*ble.) But it doesn’t work. Porn does not enhance relationships or improve sex, it makes women paranoid, and it makes men emotionally lazy and greedy for more empty sex.

I had a client who freely talked of a girlfriend (who’d paid for her boob job) in some eastern European country, a wife, and he still used chat rooms to try to get free sex, and also hookers. There were others like him too.

This is one reason porn is so bad now. Like I said before, it is making a lot of women feel pressured into what amounts to voluntary sexual slavery.

So where does that leave things? I don’t effing know. I’m still trying to work that one out.

No doubt I will edit this umpteen times as I will go away from my pc and think “damn I should have said such and such”.
"You can't start a fire without a spark" - B. Springsteen
Army Of Me
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