I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:06 pm

xochitl wrote: I do agree with the quote above. I just wish that we were in more of a position to refuse to be violated by men. I don't think most of the women in this world are in that kind of position.


Thanks. I wish that too. And, yeah, that's a sad reality. But it's also worth pointing out that I'm sure that more women would be in that position if (1) they had access to radical feminist writings more easily and if (2) the mainsteam (i.e. "malestream") media wasn't such a barrier both by shaping women's views of the world & culture and by perpetuating the status quo...
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby laurelin » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:30 pm

By the way, I just wondered: Is there anyone else (apart from me) who agrees with that Dworkin quote above? Delphyne? Xochitl? Lost Clown? Anyone else? Please let me know (that would be nice).


I completely agree with the Dworkin quote, Maggie. I love Andrea. I can't think of anything I've read by her that I haven't agreed with!
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:37 pm

laurelin wrote:I completely agree with the Dworkin quote, Maggie. I love Andrea. I can't think of anything I've read by her that I haven't agreed with!


Thanks... Same here!
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:27 pm

Maggie: I agree as well and have never (and will never) said (say) otherwise.

I'm sorry for mistaking what they said about the ordinance with what was in it. When I was becoming an anti-porn activist a good friend (someone who had marched with Dworkin in NY against porn) had told me that she took her definition of erotica from the civil rights ordinance. She probably did the same thing I did, but for me I think I will always equate the explanation of the ordinance, with its description of erotica, with the ordinance itself. But that's still a minor thing since erotica was still defined IN RELATION to the ordinance.

As per the rest, I don't think you are even *listening* to anything I post so why even bother? I've seen this sort of railroading turn many rad fems withdraw from working on *any* issues. It's ridiculous, and I think if you would just actually read and process what I said you would understand why I am making the arguments I am.

Laura has only posted here about liking BDSM. She never posted about it on her blog, which I would say is way more public, and I still think it's wrong to have a discussion about what she may or may not do without her here.

I enjoy things that I know are because of my upbringing in patriarchal society (and before you go musing about my sex life, it has NOTHING to do with that). Have I analysed it? Yes. Does that mean I don't enjoy it? Unfortunately no. Should I beat myself up about it and not participate? Do we tell women not to wear makeup? (not that I do, unless it's face paint) No, we shouldn't. Why? because I was taught that women should do what they need to get by, and sometimes what women need to get by is to do something that feels good. Before you say I could use this to justify porn, which you will, the difference is I'm not, and I will fight about it because feeling good at someone else's expense is not ok, and Laura wasn't advocating that either. There is a HUGE difference between what you do to yourself and what you do that involves others. Porn involves others, prostitution involves others. SO does BDSM but I'm not in Laura's head or her relationship and I don't participate myself so I do not wish to comment upon what's going on for her. It's her and her partner's decision, though, and she's not being forced to do it and she even said that she gave it up for a time and felt like she was repressing something. Is it our job to analyze that? Again, the answer is no because it is not up to us to tell her what she can and can't do, only to make her aware of how patriarchal conditioning made that enjoyable for her.

Like I said before, but when it comes to using another person as with pornstitution there is nothing that makes that ok, because you are using someone, which, while I do feel this happens in the BDSM community at large, am fairly certain is not happening in Laura's relationship. (Unless she starts going to those clubs and then I'm flying over there for an intervention.)
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby xochitl » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:08 am

Lost Clown wrote:There is a HUGE difference between what you do to yourself and what you do that involves others. Porn involves others, prostitution involves others. SO does BDSM but I'm not in Laura's head or her relationship and I don't participate myself so I do not wish to comment upon what's going on for her. It's her and her partner's decision, though, and she's not being forced to do it and she even said that she gave it up for a time and felt like she was repressing something. Is it our job to analyze that? Again, the answer is no . . .


But LC, the comments she made were not only personal but political. Show me where I told her to stop doing anything--it didn't happen. My responses were to political statements she made here, publicly. And when someone comes on an anti-porn feminist site and makes political statements about BDSM (which sound, to me at least, exactly like the arguments made in defense of porn and prostitution, but of course, you don't have to agree with me on this)-why I am supposed to shut up? I

I am agreeing with you, LC, that our desires are shaped by racism, colonialism, patriarchy, capitalism. It would be stupid to say otherwise. I am agreeing with you, LC, that no one is perfect, that I am not immune from this, that my desires are also shaped by these systems of domination and hierarchy. Like you, I don't beat myself up for this. But I also won't kid myself and say there is something "natural" about my desires, and I definitely won't go on a rad feminist site and tell everyone how much I enjoy participating in patriarchal stuff (because it's not really patriarchal if my intentions are good) and not expect someone to question it.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Laura » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:00 am

OK. I'll try again. BDSM is not a monolith. It encompasses a HUGE range of sexual acts and attitudes. Some of those are and can be abusive, some of those are not.

Personally, I think sadism - taking pleasure out of causing others pain - is unhealthy and abusive. I would not have sex with a man who wanted to cause me pain for the simple fact of getting off on the pain I felt, the act of harming me. Men who do this uphold patriarchy and are abusive fucks, as far as I'm concerned, whether or not they are partnered with a masochist. However, I would sleep with a man who would cause me pain IN ORDER TO GIVE ME PLEASURE in the knowledge that I enjoyed it, NOT because he enjoyed the harm he WANTED to cause me. Personally, I would only do this with someone I knew intimately and who knew me intimately, so we were both 100% clear of each others intentions and states of mind (ie, in the past I have wanted pain because I was depressive, self hating and self harming. This may be the cause of some people's masochism, if so, indulging it is abusive. It is not, howvere, the only reason people find pain sexually stimulating, and causing pain is therefore not always abusive.)

So that's some thoughts on sadism and on pain/pleasure/masochism. But what people are saying is inherently harmful and antifeminist here is BDSM. So: bondage. This includes a whole range of sex acts and techniques that can, quiet frankly, have fuck all to do with wanting to harm someone. It doesn't even need to be about dominance (which is why it's a seperate initial) - you can tie someone up to enhance the sensations they feel on and in their body. Dominance : I get the arguments against power play, and I think they are very valid. It can be entered into due to people being stuck in patriarchal gender roles, and it can be used to reinforce them. It doesn't have to be. Giving over control of your body to someone else for sexual pleasure and stimulation can be very exciting, and vice versa. It can be an expression of complete trust. As long as there is a safe word and this is undertaken between individuals who fully trust and respect each other, I think it is OK.

I'm sorry if that sounded like some corny sex book in parts.

I hope that goes some way to explaining my position here. You know, there are plenty of people who engage in some aspect sof BDSM that do not call themselves BDSMers, that do not take part in the BDSM community (I'll point out here that I think living as sub/dom is HIGHLY unhealthy), and who may very well feel attacked and alienated by the constant insistence that all BDSM is inherently harmful. Maybe you don't care, that's fine, but I for one was always scared to say anything about this because I felt I would be defriended and attacked. Now I know people dont like me - for various reasons, including the RenEv thing, which I understand - I feel able to voice my views here, and to stop beating myself up about my sex life, which I did for a long time after discovering that my newfound antiporn friends thought BDSM was evil and antiwomen.

This is also why I never explored any misgivings I had about the 'there can be no non misogynistic porn and all sexually arousing images are antifeminist' argument. I haven't 'been on the egalitarian porn bandwaggon for two years' as delphyne said; I have been trying (or at least for much of that) to not get myself kicked off the radfem antiporn fight bandwaggon. I rattled out the arguments against gay porn and against those feminists who try to make or support the idea of egalitarian porn/erotica, pushing aside any misgivings I had, because, as Maggie has so clearly demonstrated here, there is one line pushed that must be adhered to if you want to be a 'real feminist'.

Maggie, the reason I didnt reply to you again, aside from the fact that you said I was making you sick, is because you keep insisting on telling me what I should and shouldnt think, what I should and shouldnt say and do and read. It is patronising, even if that is not your intention.

For me, radical feminism can encompass a variety of views and theories, as long as those theories take as their centrepoint the patriarchal oppression of women. Everything must be examined from that PoV, and that is something I do every single day. Doesn't mean, however, that I am going to come to the same conclusions as every other radical/radical leaning feminist. Now, it may be that I've misinterpreted radical feminism here. It may be that there is one party line. But from seeing radical feminists complain of being accused of fundamentalism, of the tendency for sex pos individuals in particular to say 'radical feminists think xyz', I assume that there is not. So, suggesting that BDSM is not a monolith and is not always, inherently abusive, or that perhaps we could create egalitarian porn/erotica, doesn't make me an antifeminist, 'insane', 'sick' or a promoter of male sexual violence against women.

I hope that outlines my position. If it means I need to barred from Genderberg, that is fine.

Btw, I tried not to come back and write any more, but it kept me awake all night. I'm not good at dealing with people talking about me (which everyone has a right to, of course, I'm not saying you don't) and not being able to try and put forward my own view of myself (that's what gets me), so I felt I had to write this. As I said earlier, I wont get involved in any other threads here as I know some people are not comfortable with me, unless I see anything else come up that mentions me or The F Word where I feel the need to defend either one. I hope that is OK.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby delphyne » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:08 am

Isn't that pretty much what you'd been doing already? I'd hope you'd come here to take part in radical feminist discussions about and actions against pornography, Laura. That's what this community is for and why people join as far as I can see although other people may have a different view.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:11 am

Laura wrote:Maggie, the reason I didnt reply to you again, aside from the fact that you said I was making you sick, is because you keep insisting on telling me what I should and shouldnt think, what I should and shouldnt say and do and read. It is patronising, even if that is not your intention.


Well, I'm sorry you took it that way! And I'm sorry for panicking and sounding "patronizing" through my advices! It was not my intention. I didn't mean to make you feel that way... I'm not interested in blaming one particular woman for her determined and stubborn choice to like BDSM. I was just trying to encourage you to consider the fact that we have everything to win in utterly resisting domination/subordination behaviors, which are the results of milennia of patriarchal social conditioning (and nothing else, i.e. not 'nature' per se). I don't blame women. I blame patriarchy and all its atrocious sado-masochistic trainings!!!

It is my belief that Radical feminism is about rejecting patriarchy and all its misogynistic social trainings (and I know I've interpreted radical feminism right, here)! I have no interest in blaming women, or one particular woman for anything (unless when some women defend "pornstitution" relentlessly, and thus replicate patriarchal cruelty -- but that's another thing...). In other words, I have no interest in blaming you for your own sexual choices, Laura. I just believe that they have been conditioned by patriarchy and nothing else, and it makes me sad (that's why I was asking you to consider an egalitarian sexuality, that is non-degrading, role-free and based on humanity, mutuality, and respect -- coz it makes me sad that you have made such a choice to defend BDSM instead of repudiating patriarchal conditioning)... I believe that the radical feminist stance against sado-masochism is a great amazingly progressive sexual politics! And I also believe that the strongest feminists will have no trouble unlearning "all the forms of masochistic submission which are taught to us as the very content of womanhood", repudiating "the whole patriarchal system, with its sado-masochistic institutions, with its social scenarios of dominance and submission all based on the male-over-female model", and destroying "in ourselves the drive to masochism at its sexual roots" (in Dworkin's words)!!! (What I was and am saying is: Please, Laura, be strong! -- coz it makes me sad).

As Dworkin also said:"I believe that we must establish our own authenticity, individually and among ourselves--to experience it, to create from it, and also to deprive men of occasions for reifying the lie of manhood over and against us. I believe that ridding ourselves of our own deeply entrenched masochism, which takes so many tortured forms, is the first priority; it is the first deadly blow that we can strike against systematized male dominance. In effect, when we succeed in excising masochism from our own personalities and constitutions, we will be cutting the male life line to power over and against us, to male worth in contradistinction to female degradation, to male identity posited on brutally enforced female negativity--we will be cutting the male life line to manhood itself." ("The Root Cause" -- boldening in text is mine).

That is why, as I said, I believe that the radical feminist stance against sado-masochism is a great amazingly progressive sexual politics. It is a political stance (it is not about blaming one person for her/his stubborn choice not to utterly resist patriarchy). It is about calling on women to renounce their deeply entrenched masochism (even though it may seem very difficult to some) and establish their own authenticity -- for their own good, for the preservation of their own humanity...
Last edited by MaggieH on Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby rich » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:13 am

However, I would sleep with a man who would cause me pain IN ORDER TO GIVE ME PLEASURE in the knowledge that I enjoyed it,


That's really hot. Can you tell us more?

I've been grossing women out of ever even mentioning BDSM for years. :evil:

I think the fact that I can do what I just did speaks to just how problematic, even un-monolithed or whatever, this is. I can't imagine how love makes it less problematic.

It ain't my place to tell feminist women what they should or shouldn't do sexually.

OTOH, I'm just amazed that they don't have any problem finding men who are willing to give them pain in order to give them pleasure. They're probably terribly difficult to ferret out.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:13 am

Lost Clown wrote:Maggie: I agree as well and have never (and will never) said (say) otherwise.


Thanks, Lost Clown.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:34 am

xochitl wrote:I am agreeing with you, LC, that our desires are shaped by racism, colonialism, patriarchy, capitalism. It would be stupid to say otherwise. I am agreeing with you, LC, that no one is perfect, that I am not immune from this, that my desires are also shaped by these systems of domination and hierarchy. Like you, I don't beat myself up for this. But I also won't kid myself and say there is something "natural" about my desires, and I definitely won't go on a rad feminist site and tell everyone how much I enjoy participating in patriarchal stuff (because it's not really patriarchal if my intentions are good) and not expect someone to question it.


I agree with that, Xochitl. And Laura, questioning, advising, or encouraging are not blaming.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby delphyne » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:04 am

It is about calling on women to renounce their deeply entrenched masochism (even though it may seem very difficult to some) and establish their own authenticity -- for their own good, for the preservation of their own humanity...


.... and for our liberation. That's why all this stuff about "you're telling me I'm a bad feminist" is such bullshit. This is about women's liberation, about freeing us from male oppression and cruelty. Only in upside-down back to front fucked-up world can men inflicting pain on women be called freedom. I want liberation, I don't want or need to be a good feminist, and I want that for every other woman too.

Thank you for all those quotes from Dworkin, Maggie. She knew what she was talking about, she'd experienced it, and she says it better than anybody.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:15 am

MaggieH wrote:Well, I'm sorry you took it that way! And I'm sorry for panicking and sounding "patronizing" through my advices! It was not my intention. I didn't mean to make you feel that way... I'm not interested in blaming one particular woman for her determined and stubborn choice to like BDSM. I was just trying to encourage you to consider the fact that we have everything to win in utterly resisting domination/subordination behaviors, which are the results of milennia of patriarchal social conditioning (and nothing else, i.e. not 'nature' per se). I don't blame women. I blame patriarchy and all its atrocious sado-masochistic trainings!!!


Maggie, love ya, but that just kind of undoes your previous sentence. Like I (and Laura) said before sometimes you like something even though you don't want to.

Edited to add: directed at the commenters at large:
(No surprise) I'm with Laura. You can be the rad fem police, but you'll fail to live up to your own standards too. Everyone will.
Last edited by Lost Clown on Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:16 am

delphyne wrote:Thank you for all those quotes from Dworkin, Maggie. She knew what she was talking about, she'd experienced it, and she says it better than anybody.


You're welcome, Delphyne! I agree: she'd deeply experienced it, and she talked about it better than anybody...
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby delphyne » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:21 am

Objecting to BDSM and wondering why someone would be singing its praises in a rad fem anti-porn space isn't being the rad fem police, Lost Clown. That's the kind of rhetoric that pro-pornies normally use. Is that really how you see rad fems who make arguments against BDSM? Laura didn't need to bring her personal experiences into this, we could have had a discussion about BDSMers attacking anti-porn feminists and promoting their so-called egalitarian porn (which is just a ruse so men can hang on to all their porn) without it ever having been brought up.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:21 am

Lost Clown wrote: Maggie, love ya, but that just kind of undoes your previous sentence.


Maybe I was panicking and sounding "patronizing" through my advices, but I wasn't blaming.

edited to add= I also said: "I have no interest in blaming you for your own sexual choices, Laura. I just believe that they have been conditioned by patriarchy and nothing else..."
Last edited by MaggieH on Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:24 am

delphyne wrote:Objecting to BDSM and wondering why someone would be singing its praises in a rad fem anti-porn space isn't being the rad fem police, Lost Clown. That's the kind of rhetoric that pro-pornies normally use.


I agree.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:43 pm

delphyne wrote:Objecting to BDSM and wondering why someone would be singing its praises in a rad fem anti-porn space isn't being the rad fem police, Lost Clown. That's the kind of rhetoric that pro-pornies normally use. Is that really how you see rad fems who make arguments against BDSM? Laura didn't need to bring her personal experiences into this, we could have had a discussion about BDSMers attacking anti-porn feminists and promoting their so-called egalitarian porn (which is just a ruse so men can hang on to all their porn) without it ever having been brought up.


It didn't sound to me like she was singing its praises, just saying her own personal experience. But with some of the comments she's received it certainly does seem like you're saying she's not "a good enough feminist."
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." Clarence Darrow

"Pornography is to sex what McDonald's is to food." -Gail Dines
Lost Clown
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Location: Cascadia Free State

Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:46 pm

rich wrote:
However, I would sleep with a man who would cause me pain IN ORDER TO GIVE ME PLEASURE in the knowledge that I enjoyed it,


That's really hot. Can you tell us more?


OK, first, ew. :puke:

Second, she wasn't trying to be "sexy" at all, just stating her experience. I saw nothing that indicated she was looking for male approval, and if that's what she was doing she *definitely* knows better then to seek it here, but that's not anything she would do.
Last edited by Lost Clown on Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." Clarence Darrow

"Pornography is to sex what McDonald's is to food." -Gail Dines
Lost Clown
antiporn star
 
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:17 pm
Location: Cascadia Free State

Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:56 pm

MaggieH wrote:
Lost Clown wrote: Maggie, love ya, but that just kind of undoes your previous sentence.


Maybe I was panicking and sounding "patronizing" through my advices, but I wasn't blaming.

edited to add= I also said: "I have no interest in blaming you for your own sexual choices, Laura. I just believe that they have been conditioned by patriarchy and nothing else..."


I know, but the whole "determined and stubborn" thing....it's not like this isn't something she didn't publicly pick apart at I'm not a feminist, but. It's not something she didn't analyze. She said so much here even.
Thing is, I have tried and tried and TRIED to remove any trace of enjoyment of BDSM type activities from my sex life and sexuality and just have nice, loving, communicative etc sex. It made me unhappy. I felt I was acting the whole time. I wasn't doing what my body enjoyed, but what my politics told me was 'right'
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." Clarence Darrow

"Pornography is to sex what McDonald's is to food." -Gail Dines
Lost Clown
antiporn star
 
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:17 pm
Location: Cascadia Free State

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