I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:39 am

laurelin wrote:I wasn't going to say anything about this, as I was worried that I would be seen to be a) over-personalising this, and b) jumping on people.

I personally find it very triggering to hear descriptions of BDSM and anal sex, as it raises very unpleasant feelings and memories in me that I will not go into here. I cannot adaquately express the emotions that it calls up because I don't have the words. I'm the reason there is a trigger warning on this thread. Now, I'm not saying that I should be protected from everything that might upset me, nor that anyone did this deliberately to upset me, nor that these things shouldn't be discussed- but there is a time and place, and I don't believe that is here. This space should be safe, and I thought it was clear that such questions and discussions were inappropriate here. I doubt I'm the only one here who finds discussion of the pleasures of BDSM triggering- in fact, I believe this thread shows explicitly that I am not!


Laurelin, I'm so sad to hear you feel that way, and yeah I agree with you. You're clearly not the only one here who finds discussions of the pleasures of BDSM triggering: When Laura first brought up such domination/subordination fantasies, I clearly found them very triggering, having engaged into bondage and unwanted intercourse in the past (due to persistent ex-boyfriends' requests). It clearly wasn't easy for me to read this when it first came up and also when it came up again, because, although I had read many things like these in feminist books that gave content analyses of pornography, the pornography in anti-porn books was quoted in a safe context as being inherently bad and unfair, and what I had read on this thread, to me, was like reading pornography in its raw state. So, this clearly was triggering, given the fact that my first boyfriend (for example) would show me pornography, relentlessly try to have me act out the scenes or something that I found uncomfortable, and tell me pornographic scenarios over and over again: and it all was then pornography in its raw state (not quoted within a safe feminist context)!!! Which was very painful! That's why I did find this thread triggering too (although I had to forcefully argue in favor of the radical feminist oppositions to BDSM and pornography, which were very worthy, worth arguing for, and worth fighting for)...

I agree with Sam: Let's wrap this up! I believe that everyone has said what they wanted to say (although some people did not answer other people's questions and avoided commenting on some posts regarding the radical feminist opposition to BDSM -- but I can see reasons for that) and we have made ourselves clear about all of this. So, yes Sam, let's wrap all this up!!!

Maggie :cat: :female:
Last edited by MaggieH on Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:06 pm

No delphyne, I find nothing wrong with people having a problem with BDSM and would expect a debate. I myself have a HUGE problem with it. What I have a problem with is how you (not you personally, you as a whole):
1) didn't even bother to read or think about what Laura said,
2) b/c you didn't do (1) you lumped her in with the YAY!-BDSM crowd which she is *not* a part of (which can be surmised by this thread) and treated her like bd or RE, which means
3) you attacked her. Maybe you didn't mean to, but you did. And that's not something that I'm going to stand idly by on.

Why do you think we have such a hard time enlightening people about BDSM (or other things really)? Because we attack and don't bother to converse with them. (I didn't know if I was misrepresenting Laura so I asked, and she said no, that I was actually just reading her posts (b/c I don't *actually* know what she's thinking.))

What I would like to see when someone brings up something like this?
The same points made, the same questions posed, but in a way that would actually change the mind of someone who participates in BDSM who was reading. I.e. a conversation. Put the evidence out there, there is more then enough to show the harm. And attacking one person is not the way to do it. It just makes us seem like a bunch of assholes. Actually engage with each other don't take it as an opportunity to see who can scream the loudest. If ANY of this had been civil then I wouldn't have even bothered to comment, but I don't like it when one person is being railroaded for not believing what you do. That's pure bullshit. And you may be trying not to be mad, but I've been mad for several pages.

xochitl: She never says anywhere that it is an innate desire. NOWHERE. Like I said, and from what you said I can see how that sounds like she's saying that but the fact is she NEVER did.
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." Clarence Darrow

"Pornography is to sex what McDonald's is to food." -Gail Dines
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:24 pm

delphyne wrote:It is unreasonable to come into a rad fem space and make pro-BDSM statements and expect to receive no negative response. It is unreasonable to accuse people who strongly object to hearing statements like that in a space like this of attacking you. It is unreasonable to expect rad fems not to have any negative feelings about being told the joys of a man tying up a woman and fucking her, or hearing how whipping a woman and filming it for other's consumption is fine as long as the woman is "respected" and it is unreasonable to expect that those feelings should not be expressed. Being against male sadism and male domination is fundamental to radical feminism, yet apparently you and Laura expect people here to drop our political convictions and, well I'm not sure what, because you won't actually say what sort of a response would satisfy you.


I agree! :)

And let's wrap all this up!!!

edited to add=
Lost Clown wrote:No delphyne, I find nothing wrong with people having a problem with BDSM


I hope so!
Last edited by MaggieH on Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:36 pm

It is unreasonable to accuse people who strongly object to hearing statements like that in a space like this of attacking you.

Not, it is unreasonable for people to attack someone for not agreeing with them 100% (which is the ONLY reason I ever got involved in this thread anyway. If you all were being so reasonable I wouldn't have got so angry about the railroading.

Being against male sadism and male domination is fundamental to radical feminism, yet apparently you and Laura expect people here to drop our political convictions and, well I'm not sure what, because you won't actually say what sort of a response would satisfy you.


No one said to give up your political convictions. It's become apparent that no one believes me, but I am anti-BDSM, because I support Laura's ability to make an informed choice on what to do in her bedroom and defend that here I know you see me as a YAY! BDSMer now. Laura didn't ask you to either. I think she was looking for a conversation, remember back when she said that she often says things and it sounds like the ideas are set in stone, but they really aren't that's just how she comes off? Do you think this "discussion" would have changed anyone's minds or opened anyone's minds about anything? Do you like to be approached like this? I sure as hell don't.
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." Clarence Darrow

"Pornography is to sex what McDonald's is to food." -Gail Dines
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:54 pm

Lost Clown wrote:I am anti-BDSM


Okay, Lost Clown, I'm glad to hear that, but I'm afraid that we disagree about the rest, and we have a right to disagree on some points. Please don't criticize me for disagreeing with you 'cause I don't criticize you for disagreeing with me.

But please think about what I wrote in one of my latest posts to Laurelin ('cause I did read what you wrote in all your posts, not just skim it) which I hope you didn't just skim but actually read:

You're clearly not the only one here who finds discussions of the pleasures of BDSM triggering: When Laura first brought up such domination/subordination fantasies, I clearly found them very triggering, having engaged into bondage and unwanted intercourse in the past (due to persistent ex-boyfriends' requests). It clearly wasn't easy for me to read this when it first came up and also when it came up again, because, although I had read many things like these in feminist books that gave content analyses of pornography, the pornography in anti-porn books was quoted in a safe context as being inherently bad and unfair, and what I had read on this thread, to me, was like reading pornography in its raw state. So, this clearly was triggering, given the fact that my first boyfriend (for example) would show me pornography, relentlessly try to have me act out the scenes or something that I found uncomfortable, and tell me pornographic scenarios over and over again: and it all was then pornography in its raw state (not quoted within a safe feminist context)!!! Which was very painful! That's why I did find this thread triggering too (although I had to forcefully argue in favor of the radical feminist oppositions to BDSM and pornography, which were very worthy, worth arguing for, and worth fighting for)...


And please, Lost Clown, also think about what Laurelin and Sam said lately in this thread!

Let's wrap all this up, please!!! We've all said what we wanted to say!

Peace, please. :female:
Last edited by MaggieH on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
MaggieH
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby Lost Clown » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:02 pm

Maggie I did, and there's also a reason I never ever go into detail. (Not that I would it *squicks* me and it has every other time someone has posted some xyz thing.) Funny thing is, with the porn at least, you and Laura have a lot in common.

Don't worry, I'm done posting here anyway. That's the point I want to get across, whether people will think on it or not, *shrug*. Most of us are survivors here and to be attacked by other survivors is just heartbreaking. I fully expect to be called on things (like if *I* said BDSM is good) but to be treated respectfully and civilly while being called on it.
"One must care about a world one will never see." -Bertrand Russell

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." Clarence Darrow

"Pornography is to sex what McDonald's is to food." -Gail Dines
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:08 pm

Okay, thank you so much, Lost Clown. And Peace, please. :female:
Even though we don't agree on every point.
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
MaggieH
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby xochitl » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:06 pm

Lost Clown wrote:
xochitl: She never says anywhere that it is an innate desire. NOWHERE. Like I said, and from what you said I can see how that sounds like she's saying that but the fact is she NEVER did.


LC, You're right that Laura didn't use the word "innate," I did, because "innate" means the same thing as the thing that exists "in the absence of socialization," which is the term Laura used. If Laura believes that desire for sexual pain is caused by patriarchal socialization and not to some innate desires (desires which would exist in the absence of patriarchal conditioning), then I agree with her. But she didn't say that here, on this thread. She said the opposite here.

I'm sorry I got sucked into this thread, which is triggering to many women here. I'm going to respect the wishes of these women and extract myself from this discussion now.
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Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby MaggieH » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:35 pm

xochitl wrote:LC, You're right that Laura didn't use the word "innate," I did, because "innate" means the same thing as the thing that exists "in the absence of socialization," which is the term Laura used. If Laura believes that desire for sexual pain is caused by patriarchal socialization and not to some innate desires (desires which would exist in the absence of patriarchal conditioning), then I agree with her. But she didn't say that here, on this thread. She said the opposite here.


Thanks, Xochitl. I did notice that too. Which is why I disagree with Lost Clown and Laura. And I wasn't blaming Laura for her conditioning. I was merely encouraging her to fully resist patriarchy. I even said, at some point, that her choices made me sad and I also told her (and LC) to be strong.

But, obviously we cannot agree on every point, and we have a right to disagree. That is why I say again: Peace, please! :female:

xochitl wrote:I'm sorry I got sucked into this thread, which is triggering to many women here. I'm going to respect the wishes of these women and extract myself from this discussion now.


Thank you for that, Xochitl. And thank you for your thoughts...
"The assumption that "most women are innately heterosexual'' stands as a theoretical and political stumbling block for many women. It remains a tenable assumption, partly because lesbian existence has been written out of history or catalogued under disease;. . . partly because to acknowledge that for women heterosexuality may not be a "preference" at all but something that has had to be imposed, managed, organized, propagandized and maintained by force is an immense step to take if you consider yourself freely and "innately" heterosexual. Yet the failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution is like failing to admit that the economic system called capitalism or the caste system of racism is maintained by a variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness. . ."
-- Adrienne Rich, in Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence: http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.” ~ Alice Walker
MaggieH
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Posts: 1817
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:36 am

Re: I used to like The F Word pre Jess McCabe (poss. trigger)

Postby sam » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:02 am

I have occasionally felt a little contrite about singling out Jess McCabe in the thread title. Each time, I am soon reminded that Jess really does promote the pornstitution industries and give a platform to anti-feminism in ways The F Word did not used to.

The latest example is having someone who works for a website where punters brag and rate the prostitutes they've raped to say how much feminists disrespect and despise prostituted women.

http://www.thefword.org .uk/blog/2010/08/guest_post_some#comments

Nichi Hodgson writes for The Erotic Review, a fact an honest editor with integrity would have made clear to her readers. Erotic Review is Craig's List minus everything but the prostitution and trafficking facilitation.

http://www.eroticreviewmagazine .com/blogs/nichi-hodgson/heckle-me-bad

Instead of the very relevant truth of who Nichi works for, readers got

Following the UK Feminista conference, Nichi Hodgson reflects on the ‘silent victim’ and inclusion in feminism. Nichi is a 26-year-old lexophilic, omnisexual journalist, who pines for a sausage dog but refuses to entirely invoke Diane Keaton’s character in Manhattan.


Then the absurd kicking of feminists from First Wave to Second Wave to Abolition Wave began.

When some members of this forum tried to post the truth about Nichi's conflict of interest, Jess McCabe deleted and censored their posts claiming they were "personal attacks."

"Nichi Hodgson writes for the Erotic Review" is not a personal attack. Keeping F Word readers from learning this relevant information is dishonest and slimy.

I used to like the F Word pre Jess McCabe.
"Your orgasm can no longer dictate my oppression"

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