Why aren't males interested in feminism? (category: rant)

Got something to share with the reading public that isn't an action but should be read?

Moderators: delphyne, oneangrygirl, deedle, sam

This is from a male antiporn "feminist"

Postby elfeminista » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:26 am

I have been thinking, and writing on the subject of male feminists for the last few days, and also I wanted to see if any of the males here had any imput before I went on. As a result I did not post anything here in the last few days.Part of the reason why I think it is important that we examine "men in feminism" and the reason for creating a radical feminist men's caucus is because I believe that many males professing to be feminists are unfortunately anything but that, and act in ways that are a negative influence. I will post this bulletin sent out by a new "feminist male" aquainatnce, who professed to be antiporn.
This bulletin went out to Women and men, calling Women "whores'.Drives you nuts.



THE WORDS BELLOW ARE A POST MADE BY A MALE THAT CLAIMS TO BE AN ANTIPORN FEMINIST:
"Vid:Girls Gone Wild Bimbos/Whores....Stupid Male Fantasies.
Body: Girls Gone Wild at the CES 2007

----------------------------------------------------

How can anyone stand being around these white trash whores ( unfortunately, produced by that sexist idiot of a moron Joe Francis) like that for more then a second? Unfortunately the city is filled with clubs nowadays that attract these boring, dull, all look/dress alike female clones who have nothing to say. They're delusional in thinking that they are being liberating in their sexuality. They haven't a clue as to what they're doing and I'm by no means a prude or some religious/christian lunatic who is spouting so-called moral values.. These women are simply perpetuating the dumb male fantasy myth. This kind of behaviour keeps everyone stupid and our society as a whole is regressing.....not progressing...

Watch these "enlightened" dumb as a male jock/redneck Girls Gone Wild girls promote a UBS video gadget at the CES 2007. They also talk about their cool Sony iPod and hating the sidekick.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

negative effect

Postby elfeminista » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:37 am

Patriarchy is a very old dog, and it has very old tricks, that work.
I have been contacting males for a long time, both "feminists" and non-feminists to see if we can begin to form a group of males who can learn to work together to help end this "regime".What I have found is that it is difficult to get males who are self-professed feminists or pro-feminists to even interact with one another, never mind to connect strongly with one another and form activist groups.

I am going to s include a quote from Mary Daly's "Outercourse," which is relevant to this thread, It has to do with male influence within women's communities.

"The history of women's struggles to provide and maintain diverse forms of "Women's Space" has been a vivid testimony to the fact that men recognize this to be a crucial issue in the war to control women's minds. ... Particularly instructive has been the virulent and often vicious undermining by university administrators of the efforts of Feminists to reverse some Women's Studies classes for women only. Such classes can provide the occasion for true encounters with Metamemory, for perceiving and reasoning beyond the schemata of "adult," i.e., maleauthored, memories. They can provide contexts for Remembering beyond civilization, for Metapatterning. Therefore, they must be undermined. The radical potential of freely thinking women is a threat to the very meaning of a patriarchal university.

"This analysis was inspired, in large measure, by my own experience of teaching Women's Studies courses in a very patriarchal university. It was also inspired, and reinforced, by conversations with professors of Women's Studies in many colleges and universities in the 1970's and 1980's. My experience has been that the presence of male students together with women in such classes slows down and in fact blunts the learning process for the women. This is of course in part an effect of learned responses to the presence of males--even of one male--in the class. Eventually I discussed with with the students and began holding separate sessions for women and men".

If this is the effect of male influence in academia, (and there have since been studies that buttress Mary Daly's claim) it not a possibility that we have a negative and subverting effect within the Movement? is it possible that this may be often happening despite our 'concious good intentions?

My premise is the we have to honestly work to get to the "root" of things also. The root within US.

to be continued.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Postby elfeminista » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

I was thinking that just as there are common reactions to the threat of male violence,( physical psychological or psychic)
reactions so deeply inbedded that are a way of life for Women , in the daily reactions to relentless male onslaught, there could very well be a "male patriarchal imperative " a collective propensity to oppress and control *together as males* in subtle ways. wheather men do this conciously or subconciously is irrelevant to our point. It would still be a "will to subvert", a manifestation of a collective male unspoken yet age old agreement, to suppress Womens independent beingness.
I have e-mailed countless males mentioning the possibility of a male feminist caucus acting *independently*. Most of the time they do not even bother to return the message. Even though I explain that because of our greater agency, because we receive undue attention from women when we are within feminist environments,thereby diverting, we may be able to offer more as males working together away from Women's environments(With feminist guidance of course). No interest. Now let a woman e-mail them, and you can be sure that he will return that e-mail and be very friendly and tell her about all the wonderful things that they is doing.
This creeps me out. There are exeptions but I am talking about the overwhelming majority of males calling themselves feminists.

I wonder if subconciously or conciously we males are simultaneously sabotaging by sucking up attention and derailing feminist work, and because we know that it would be really useful, if males *together* declared for feminism as a political movement and don't act on it..

To my mind, the best solution would be to have a male caucus that separates itself from patriarchal males and only interacts socially with those that are also deeply commited .Also, this caucus could learn together and work on issues together. This way we could begin to build a feminist male epistemology, and begin to do do some real activism.

Therefore I state the need for a caucus males to work separately from Women on this cause.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Postby Andrew » Wed May 02, 2007 3:43 pm

So, when do we start?


Personally, I was put off by Mary Daly's stance at first. NOt that I object to women getting together to talk away from man but it looked bad from the equity standpoint in theory. Looked bad for the =college and for Daly to allow it. But I'm really not opposed to single-sex education in some contexts depending on the motive. THe college should have supported her, offered the equiv. material in a male only group and unequivocally stated the special reasons that applied in this case.
Above paragraph is not the message but a footnote.
Andrew
antiporn star
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:43 pm
Location: Lost in America

Postby elfeminista » Wed May 02, 2007 5:01 pm

"So when do we start?"

Wow.

Regarding Mary Daly, Boston College is a very conservative Christian university, and they had been trying to fire mary for 25 years. That was just the excuse that they needed. They don't call it BC for nothin...

As far as "equity," you have to start to read all those books that are there that will explain the reason why that reasoning does not work. It took me time to understand it too, and we are not college kids who have all the time in the world to read, but read we must.I was thinking today how to explain to people why radical feminism is the better choice rather than say liberal feminism. I came up with 2 things.These are things that I learned from Women, nothing that I thought up, but I think that finally I have internalized them and can speak about it as something that I own.

1) Theory that comes from social reality, not from academic musings and that theory then enters academia from the prism of Women's experience thereby making sound social theory. In my view this is the largest body of theory *ever* for in history for a political movement to inform itself with.Andrew a lot of that theory is addressing " equity", because its not so simple as it seems. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

2)a plan of action that is rigorously tied to the theory, maintaining a healthy focus on Women but ultimately also on all of us.

we can reframe our thinking . In my view then, we have to read, learn, resolve and act.We also of course need to check on ourselves with a self anlysis and self legislation, internalizing whar we learn.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Postby Andrew » Thu May 03, 2007 1:36 pm

Thanks for the response, el. I didn't think that "equity" was easy to define, only looking at how it would be interpreted in the "outside" world. "Looked bad", not to say "was bad". More later.
Yes, a lot of reading to do....
Andrew
antiporn star
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:43 pm
Location: Lost in America

Postby sunnysmiles » Thu May 03, 2007 2:45 pm

el, regarding your PM re: males and profeminism. If you go to facebook - there are actually a whole cadre of 'profeminist' (except they call themselves - feminist) dudes there. Like it has about 300 members. I was impressed and they are like really, really young (teens - mid-20s).
sunnysmiles
antiporn star
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:31 pm

Postby KatetheGreat » Thu May 03, 2007 3:08 pm

Really? What kind of feminists are these men on facebook?

I know a few who took up the title after hearing about sex-positive feminism (suprise suprise) - obviously because it let them feel good about their porn habits. "But I'm liberating you women from the shackles of right wing puritan opression!"


But if those are genuine feminists I'd be impressed.. I've lost hope in a lot of guys my age unfortunately.

A lot of the groups on facebook (the feminist groups) stress the feminist importance of being regarded as individuals rather than as members of a larger group or class.. I prickle a bit when I hear that, because I think I know what issue they're applying that philosophy to..

Wanna take any guesses?

Please send me the example. Boost my dwindling faith in early 20's-mankind :P
KatetheGreat
antiporn star
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:03 pm
Location: Nova Scotia

Postby sunnysmiles » Thu May 03, 2007 3:40 pm

kate, I wasn't too interested in reading about the dudes on facebook - it was kind of in passing looking for 'feminist groups' in general, so I wasn't interested enough read the detailed experiences. el had asked about men of colour feminists/young feminists earlier. I just thought I would mention it here.

And yes, I am sure all of us know/have experienced the 'asshole feminist dude' out to get 'laid' in real life. I have known a few too. I think IMO dudes would have to be anti-porn to be feminist. They can't be allies IMO otherwise.
sunnysmiles
antiporn star
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:31 pm

Postby elfeminista » Thu May 03, 2007 3:40 pm

Please let me know where to find them, 90% of the guys that contact me are the 'sex positive' types, which we of course don't want. if we took 'sex positi" feminist we would have no problem getting guys. On my page it tell them to get lost. Please let me know where 'facebook is and how to link to them
I have to say that from the small group of rad fem identified antipornography guys that we have going,
2 of them are 18 year olds and one came from OAG's site.

One of the things that I see is that many young Women buy and read books. Young males have a harder time actually *reading* the books, although i am finding this to be a problem with some Women too. You cant just read internet exerpts and snipets.

sunnysmiles, that is part of the reason for having a male group tha works separately. I mean is it a philosophical and political movement or isn't it?
Last edited by elfeminista on Thu May 03, 2007 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Postby sunnysmiles » Thu May 03, 2007 3:41 pm

sorry el, you asked - you'll have to do the work! :)

I'm sure you wouldn't mind doing it.

Just join the FB and examine it!
sunnysmiles
antiporn star
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:31 pm

Postby elfeminista » Thu May 03, 2007 3:59 pm

I just want to kanow what facebook is. Is it facebook.com?

Edited: ok i think i found it, facebook . com
Thank you sunnysmiles!
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Postby KatetheGreat » Thu May 03, 2007 4:39 pm

"I think IMO dudes would have to be anti-porn to be feminist. They can't be allies IMO otherwise."

I whole-heartedly agree sunnysmiles :D
KatetheGreat
antiporn star
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:03 pm
Location: Nova Scotia

Postby gerry » Thu May 03, 2007 5:36 pm

El---why an all male group as opposed to a men's group taking their guidance from female members??

Jimmy Ho---why your conflict about pro-feminist orgs?

the porn issue and pro-feminists. i was a member of NYMAS (New York Men Against Sexism) with John Stoltenberg at the helm... the group eventually split over the pornsitution issue.
You Don't Need a Weatherman to Know Which Way the Wind Blows
gerry
antiporn star
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: south of Montreal

Postby sunnysmiles » Thu May 03, 2007 6:36 pm

gerry wrote:the porn issue and pro-feminists. i was a member of NYMAS (New York Men Against Sexism) with John Stoltenberg at the helm... the group eventually split over the pornsitution issue.


It's really odd you know, I read about those groups before and the reasons for splitting. It's just so fucking stupid seriously if you think about it. If you're a dude, I don't think it's an if/and/but issue. You benefit from pornstitution, so it's important that you let other men know how your masculinity (even if you are gay) is shaped by it.

Anyways, I'm sorry to interject in this thread.
sunnysmiles
antiporn star
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:31 pm

Postby rich » Thu May 03, 2007 7:06 pm

, I read about those groups before and the reasons for splitting.


I haven't! Where is this info? Or are you referring to the stuff Nikki Craft has up?
rich
antiporn star
 
Posts: 1134
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:43 am

Postby sunnysmiles » Thu May 03, 2007 7:10 pm

In a gender studies class in 99 (fack, I'm old) - it was a compilation book and/or some photocopied readings. for the life of me I can't remember the name of the book. I've moved twice since then - so I doubt I can find the info. BUT, I can look it up on JSTOR or something - and if I come across something similar I will send it to you.

ETA: http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=101307162

this seems like an interesting book nonetheless. I like the fact that it's written by a woman. Usually you have men writing about other men, but I like how she's made a summary about all of it. I'm hoping she might have summarized the 'splitting' of the main profeminist US groups in the 80's and 90s over the pornz issue.
sunnysmiles
antiporn star
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:31 pm

Postby gerry » Fri May 04, 2007 10:01 am

sunnysmiles wrote:
gerry wrote:the porn issue and pro-feminists. i was a member of NYMAS (New York Men Against Sexism) with John Stoltenberg at the helm... the group eventually split over the pornsitution issue.


It's really odd you know, I read about those groups before and the reasons for splitting. It's just so fucking stupid seriously if you think about it. If you're a dude, I don't think it's an if/and/but issue. You benefit from pornstitution, so it's important that you let other men know how your masculinity (even if you are gay) is shaped by it.

Anyways, I'm sorry to interject in this thread.


Yes, this has been THE MAJOR reason behind the demise and demoralization of pro-feminist orgs. (the other being the inability of men to work without women--perhaps equally powerful) Most men who refuse the pornsitition pos. cite either gay theory or those feminists who adopt some similar theory or theories. I personally found it pretty shocking when men in my groups refuse to include porn or prostitution in their violence against women work and groups. am going through this right now in my current group, and did twice before in new york city.

thanks for the link, sunnysmiles. new to me. and i will be reading this book.
You Don't Need a Weatherman to Know Which Way the Wind Blows
gerry
antiporn star
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:38 pm
Location: south of Montreal

Postby elfeminista » Fri May 04, 2007 1:32 pm

I will address the comments by sunnysmiles and Gerry hopefully later tonight.

As far as finding "male feminists", I think that the thing to for us males do is to work on outreach until we find people whose personalities are suitable, then work with them because this is the type of response I get from males perhaps 95 % of the time.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
His answer to my e-mail:
"your definition of feminism is kind of problematic. As a collective with members who engage in sex work (both male and female bodied), to tell folks that we aren't "real" feminists because of what we choose to do with our own lives is an issue. We certainly respect the fact that some folks have a problem with prostitution and pornography. And needless to say those industries have a lot of their own garbage that needs to be taken care of. However, living in an inherently oppressive capitalist system I don't think it's right to fault people for a job choice they make that is their own. There are much worse jobs. We fully support helping sexworkers through unionizing type activities, support networks, etc. However, to say that we can't make our own choices is a bit much. Especially coming from someone who is male-bodied.

-bleedingearth"



My e-mail
"We are a group of PRO-RADICAL FEMINIST males Looking for like- minded guys interested in activism and forming a me's caucus. you can check out my page if you would like, and you can find a good outline of what we are talking about. RF means we are looking for guys who are not into porn or prostitution. If you are or know someone who might be interested please forward them to my myspace page and ask them to identify themselves.

Thank you."
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
elfeminista
antiporn star
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Postby sam » Fri May 04, 2007 2:16 pm

what we choose to do with our own lives...those industries have a lot of their own garbage


That reminds me of what men say when you ask them how their favorite sports team did last game; either "We won" or "They lost".

Our lives, those industries.
"Your orgasm can no longer dictate my oppression"

Trisha Baptie
sam
chaotic good
 
Posts: 4391
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:54 am

PreviousNext

Return to essays, articles, rants for public view

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 153 guests