Why aren't males interested in feminism? (category: rant)

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Postby gerry » Fri May 04, 2007 2:59 pm

Another favorite reason that men give for their bail out on p+p is that "we are into outreach, and people will turn off to us." Or "it might offend people and we're looking to reach as many men as possible." I am facing this crap right now---only one or two members say no to including p+p in our work (mainly domestic violence) but not a single member (women included) act as tho they truly want to include this in our work---tho our work is "all violence against women."

Another response goes something like this: "I mean isn't everyone against p+p." In other, words why do we have to name it or even think about it at all, let alone work against it.

Often I sense that they just want me to go away.
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Postby elfeminista » Fri May 04, 2007 4:18 pm

That is the strength of radical feminism It is rigorous intellectually, and should be rigorous operationally.
That is what I meant by males being in kindergarten within the movement.

"Another favorite reason that men give for their bail out on p+p is that "we are into outreach, and people will turn off to us." Or "it might offend people and we're looking to reach as many men as possible." I am facing this crap right now---only one or two members say no to including p+p in our work (mainly domestic violence) but not a single member (women included) act as tho they truly want to include this in our work---tho our work is "all violence against women."

Another response goes something like this: "I mean isn't everyone against p+p." In other, words why do we have to name it or even think about it at all, let alone work against it.

Often I sense that they just want me to go away."

I think that it is best to reform and create cadres that will take the different types of work that need to be done. Some of us can work on DV, some will work on p-p some will work on education and pedagogy, but we must seek to have the same type of discipline that those who lead this movement have.
We need to have conciousness raising, to go trough the process that women went through in the 1960s and 70s. we need our own *awakening* or we wont really "get it"and I really do not think that that can really be done working on 4 different social causes at the same time, or by having a mysogynist friend that one "just likes' by the way, not while we are in the process of learning and internalizing what we learn.

Having said that not every group has to work on porn, But with a disciplined and organized group we can foster people who will be happy to do so. This experience you describe above is similar to the feeling I had when I was in NYMAS. Yes I was there too when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Maybe we met back in the day.when were you there?
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby sunnysmiles » Fri May 04, 2007 9:50 pm

you should do a presentation here: http://www.genderberg.com/phpBB/viewtop ... 1&start=60

at the Nomas thing.
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Postby elfeminista » Sat May 05, 2007 6:50 am

Thanks

This does look like a good place for a presentation, esp if there will be a lot of people there. I will look into it.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby KatetheGreat » Wed May 09, 2007 6:50 pm

My boyfriend's been frustratedly sending me youtube's seemingly endless collection of misogyny, men's movement and anti-feminist videos. I never knew how staunch some conservatives or the men's movement were but I was pretty amazed at the propaganda and the support it's getting.

Go to the blog for a laugh. :)

http://www. youtube .com/watch?v=JLJ0vXXWEYo&mode=related&search=

http://www. verlch . blogspot.com/
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Postby elfeminista » Fri May 11, 2007 6:56 am

A whole week has passed since i promised to continue the thread's inquiery into men and feminism. I have been very busy and have not been able to.I will get to it soon.

Today (and yesterday) I have been really down. While continuing my efforts to find guys who are interested in this. Everyday I am being friended at my site by Women. Now at a rate of about 2 a day, even though I really make no efforts to find feminist Women. Even after finding males that are interested they don't bother to contribute, to be involved, to do anything other to be an icon on a page.

The women ask questions, make comments. respond to bulletins. 80% of the messages and comments to the *men's* site come from Women.

I am really discouraged today.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby delphyne » Fri May 11, 2007 7:02 am

I think it's unlikely that you'll get men to come to your side, elfeminista. What you have to do, is what feminists do, and speak up against sexism in general spaces where male supremacy usually holds sway. Then, if there are men who also have misgivings about sexism, they will be encouraged to also start questioning misogyny and objecting to it.
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Postby elfeminista » Fri May 11, 2007 9:50 am

Thank you delphyne I always appreciate it and listen to your comments intently.
I think I am just going through the "periodic activist meltdown" many go through.Need a break.
While I thank you earnestly,to me what you are suggesting is as Mary Daly would call it, on the "Foreground" level, and what I want to do is to try to connect to men on the "Background' level.There are at least 100 books on men and masculinities oy there , but no movement that is comprehensive ideologicaly and that has an activist focus. even mary is Skeptically optimistic because there are several males who She has met who are willing to try to go there. "There" is on a profound ontological, personal level. My thoughts are if males become real they will understand 'sisterhood is powerful' and follow radical feminists' example.
Without this it will be like rolling the rock uphill ala Sysiphus.You may be saying 'it isn't going to work" which I respect and today am likely to agree with you on.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby KatetheGreat » Fri May 11, 2007 2:41 pm

like I said before, my boyfriend is very interested in getting involved in activism.
I think the thing that holds him back is a fear that he might come accross as looking like he doesn't know a great deal to people who do. It's easy for us to talk aobut it because if he doesn't get something, I explain it and he feels comfortable admitting he doesn't know. But he'd feel a little stupid doing it around some people.
Thing is, I've known him for 2 years. We were friends for ta year, and then so far we've been dating a year - but it was only a little before we went out that he was introduced to a lot of the theory. He'd felt that way, but he was hanging out with a different group and I didn't talk much to people about it at the time because I tended to get shot down. When I finally told him about it he started finding backup for what he'd always sensed all along, but didn't know how to explain.
So over the year, we've talked about it a lot and he's gotten heavily involved with talking about it to his family and some people at work etc. and questioning a lot of media and donating to causes, but there are times he feels bad because he doesn't know some of the jargon. He told me he'd love to get involved, I think he'd just feel idiotic if he was around someone who maybe didn't get he was fairly new to it all and wasn't willing to explain certain things if he didn't understand.

If that makes sense.
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Postby elfeminista » Fri May 11, 2007 3:50 pm

Thank you,Kate, that was a very instructive.

I hear you are saying.
I try to tell guys to not be scared or upset when idiot males challenge their masculinity,(or even non feminist Women who say we are not 'real men" lol) but what you bring up is that people do not want to be made to look foolish within their own group. Good point..
I still make silly mistakes, even though I have been around the movement for a very long time. I am not a Woman, and we will never know what that is, you can learn a lot as a guy, but every once in a while those gaps or blind spots are going to be there. for example when I walk down the street with a woman, I don't experience her being harassed by cat callers making disgusting remarks. No one feels me up in the subway.

I think that you are saying to be nice to the newbies... I agree. Sometimes I come off a little stentorian. I'm going to work on that.

One thing that you said rang very true.
" When I finally told him about it he started finding backup for what he'd always sensed all along, but didn't know how to explain."

I hear from nearly every guy that is going to be serious about this:
' always knew there was something wrong' or "every since I was a kid I felt.."
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but from my observations, the majority of guys that are going to take it serious were feeling that way "about patriarchy before they became grownups. I wonder if you could ask that question of your bf-
did he have these feelings as a teen? pre teen?
It seems to be something that keeps coming up for me.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby Andrew » Fri May 11, 2007 6:41 pm

THanks, Kate for articulating what I couldn't for el feminista. WHile I appreciate the merits of eing right, few people like to feel like fools, even, or especially in groups where they are trying to be accepted, accepting and acceptable.Gender relations being what they are , unfortunately, that really kicks in for some guys when they are around women, even if there is no thought of romantic interest. But , if I may be so bold, teaching is a gift, part of it is knowing how to assess quickly someone's knowledge attitude and personality to be able to help them advance. THat can't really itself be taught.
SO we have strong theory people, great activists, and we also need teachers and encouragers for people like your boyfriend, me, el, well weren't we all there once?
Or what?
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Postby elfeminista » Fri May 11, 2007 8:05 pm

Andrew, I am working on it. I personally am not the best teacher, and I know that. There is a young man of 18 at XY that wants to learn why porn is bad, maybe you will want to talk to him! I was very nice to him, I think. I don't berate 18 year olds unless they are total jerks but it is really hard to be nice to a 30 year old guy who has a BA and says he is a "pro porn feminist". Perhaps later on, but for now i think that trying to convert and be nice to such a male is a waste of time. In this instance telling that "pro-porn male feminist"to get lost may be the strongest statement we can make to him.



Before anyone can tech they have to know the subject matter. *Again*, feminism is a political-philosophical movement, with specific tenets, and a World view. There are books to read.

For example: 'the state of gender relations'
does not adequately describe the effect of the power differential between gendered classes"
to say "gender relations" assumes an equality or some kind of parity or agency.IMHO, the only way to be able to teach others about porn about rape about prostitution, about objectification and violence against women etc etc., is to have a firm grounding on theory, because the interconnectedness of many of these Woman-destroying mechanisms have been identified and theorized already and sound game plans have given on how to proceed to action.

So yes I agree that there are different people for different tasks, and i would be happy to do less teaching, if there are disciplined guys who can follow the tenets of RF in doing that.

Without that deep feminist grounding it will be like trying to collect water with a straw basket.
Also this is very challenging work for people born male, and again IMO if you have someone who has 3 other causes that he is involved in we may be wasting valuable teaching time.esp since they have to read all of those books(wink).
respectfully
elfeminista.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby Andrew » Sat May 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Yeah, OK. But I disagree about "relations". In most contexts, it does not necessarily imply agency and certainly not parity. And I deny the notion that women have no agency. Not equal agency, I'll give you that.
P.ex: labor relations, international relations, marital relations, intra-familial relations, etc.
AND sometimes people who are just a little more advanced than their students can actually be very good teachers. Not an excuse for not mastering the material... I'm gonna read the books, OK?
Cheerio!
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Postby elfeminista » Sat May 12, 2007 10:27 pm

Andrew,

You wrote;

"P.ex: labor relations, international relations, marital relations, intra-familial relations, etc. '

The locus of control in all these relations is Patriarchy. The porn and prostitution that you fight, (and it is an admirable thing that you do) is directly related to these institutions you mention above by the patriarchal imperative, the same locus of control. Porn and prostitution are weapons of fear intimidation and humiliation that correlate to the structures and who shares the spoils within the above mentioned institutions.
That is where the "relations" exist.
When we speak of power diferentials between the genders, we know these 'relations' are clearly defined by male supremacy. By not naming *male supremacy* by pointing out the power differential, I believe we cheat all those who read our words out of the opportunity of realizing who holds the keys to the Jail cell= Class man.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby elfeminista » Wed May 16, 2007 11:24 pm

sunnysmiles: took your advive re Male feminists at facebook.


Overun by female anti-feminists and a couple of liberal feminist men on this thread.. This is kind of representative of what i found on their boards (shakes head)=

sther Kemball (Manchester) wrote on Jan 12, 2007 at 2:44 PM
Why are you feminists rather than anti-sexists? Why do you only want to protect women from sexism? Why don't you also want to protect yourselves? I am not asking these questions to be rude. I'm genuinely curious.

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Post #2
Tracy Fleshman (Columbia College) replied to Esther's post on Jan 13, 2007 at 7:03 PM
feminism implies being anti sexist. I don't agree with man hating feminists just as much as I don't agree with misogyny. We do want to protect ourselves from sexism and all other forms of prejudice. Everyone deserves a fair shake regardless of their sex or gender identity.

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Esther Kemball (Manchester) wrote on Jan 14, 2007 at 1:28 PM
I agree that everyone deserves a fair share. But the very word feminism implies it's exclusively fighting for women. I know that not all feminists hate men, but feminism is about rights for women. Although women seem to bear the brunt of discrimination in most societies, there are still injustioces against men - notably in most Western education systems. These need to be confronted too, right?

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Post #4
Alan Jern (UCLA) replied to Esther's post on Jan 15, 2007 at 2:10 PM
Feminism is a word that can mean many things. Historically, feminism has been primarily about obtaining rights for women, but in more recent years, feminism has come to encompass (for some people, not necessarily all self-described feminists) a rejection of all forms of discrimination and social injustice (sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.).

It is true that there are schools of feminism that promote exclusively female values over so-called male values, but I think most modern feminists endorse a form of feminism that universally opposes discrimination.

In this respect, I do not think it is a contradiction to be both male and a feminist.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby sunnysmiles » Thu May 17, 2007 11:41 am

Okay, I hadn't looked at in detail at the time - but now I see how crappy it is.

deleted...
Last edited by sunnysmiles on Thu May 17, 2007 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rich » Thu May 17, 2007 11:45 am

you should have seen when he cast a spell on me at Ms., summoning Hekate to smite me. :P
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Postby KatetheGreat » Thu May 17, 2007 12:40 pm

"there are still injustioces against men - notably in most Western education systems."

what injustice is he referring to?
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Postby elfeminista » Thu May 17, 2007 1:45 pm

Derailing again....as usual...

Well, we live and learn. I am editing this post to paste what i think is important for males to name and act upon:

" Men who want to support women in our struggle for freedom and justice should understand that it is not terrifically important to us that they learn to cry; it is important to us that they stop the crimes of violence against us."

Andrea Dworkin

Women's work in the movement is different than male's work. While we have to educate ourselves and be there in solidarity and friendship it is clear that our sisters don't need us to do the things that they are more than qualified to do and for which they have already created an infrastructure and a methodology. Women do not really expect us to help heal the rifts dividing Women, for example (these rifts which are caused by patriarchy (us)in the first place), to be theorists, in short to become involved in the aspects of feminist discourse that we do not belong in.
We have different jobs on the practical level
Our job is to help empower Women, and their job is to EMPOWER themselves.
Some of the things that we can do, they cannot do, which are:
*Work on changing ourselves and our concept of "manhood" or masculinity.
*Work to remove the demand for pornography and prostitution. Pledge to not be "consumers".
*Pledge and *act* to eradicate rape.
*Pledge and *act* to eradicate DV and all forms of violence against Women and kids.
* To learn to listen and to try to *not* do things which get in the way of Women realizing their full potential, by doing the things that we are so accustumed to doing, like allways trying to lead the show, allways pushing out 'ideas" on to them, such as religion, patriarchal political perspectives, personaly crowding them in a social-emotional context, etc.
*Do our share of housework, (and childcare when relationships with children are involved).
*Support feminism as males,because since as males we have unfortunately more agency than our sisters, our united voices will help to change the perception of males from thinking "oh those are the guys that are allied with those crazy manhaters" to 'those guys are part of that political movement that espouses those politics". (this is a whole long discussion in itself,and not an easy one).


Like anything else involving social change, coordinating of action always works best with a disciplined group that is specialized and as our job is different, then it is logical that we rally males to do that job.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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thank you

Postby elfeminista » Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:48 am

Harmony - a present of presence.

You know, i just want to share that yesterdaywas a very nice day for me as far as feeling positive about this that we are doing

The good stuff started with the guy at The Saint Marks Bookshop
agreeing to get "Off our backs" back on the shelves and actually saying "We will try to redeem Oursleves in your eyes" Ok...sounds good. Then, walking down the street and stop by some booksellers, a man has a first paperback edition of "The Elegant Prostitute, a social and psychoanalitical stydy" a very early anti prostitution Tome (originally "The call girl", 1948) by Dr Harold Grennwald.as I buy it the creepy bookseller tells me how he likes raunchy prostitutes, yada yada. ::erase::.*then* the next bookseller is a woman who starts talking about Hildegard Von Bingen and Theresa De Avila, who then starts talking some wild stuff having to do with mathematics and arches and feminism, her stuff, complex maybe a little too complex esoteric for me at the moment, but my brain must have been subconciously processing because i was getting goose bumps and saying
to myself, 'this isnt just idle talk this is deep, I am just not understanding it all right now", i go on a couple of minutes later I go into an eyeglass store one of the the two women working there sees my book and asks about it, saying "I like your book", it turns out they are antiporn and dont understand how anyone could think it ios empowering.Yeay..I give them the genderberg.com URL.
Lastly, I meet someone who is a philosopher -theorist at a business meeting. Megasmart. She is 25. By the time night falls, for once i felt inspired.

One word came to mind, something that seems to elude males so often, and which is one of the things that we can learn a lot about form our sisters. If we get this i think it would be important.


Harmony

And i think it is another reason for formation of a males' radical feminist activist caucus
within the movemt.

There was a sort of cooperative vibe to yeasterday, for me. the allienation happens for all of us, males and women within patriarchy.

Is moving towards harmony possible for guys ?
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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