Why aren't males interested in feminism? (category: rant)

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Postby elfeminista » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:47 am

We have to change what 'men", means.
It means to me that we become very aware of what males have done and start thinking of our Sisters first.We are talking about a momentous change in human society, something revolutionary. If males are to be involved then we must work to erase patriarchal thinking,
creating a "brotherhood" modeled on Sisterhood. In my view this is positive, not harmful.
Traditionally, the word brotherhood has meant exclusive hierarchichal, and masculinist as well as traditionalist. Think of "The International Brotherhood of Teamsters", the movie "Band of brothers' see how brotherhood is often related to militarism and male exclusivity.
To hell with all that. let us learn to undo.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby bluecoat28 » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:07 pm

elfeminista wrote:We have to change what 'men", means.
It means to me that we become very aware of what males have done and start thinking of our Sisters first.We are talking about a momentous change in human society, something revolutionary. If males are to be involved then we must work to erase patriarchal thinking,
creating a "brotherhood" modeled on Sisterhood. In my view this is positive, not harmful.
I agree with you to some extent, but not 100%. Ever since I began reading Robert Jensen's Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity I've become skeptical of redefining masculinity. Jensen believes men need to transcend masculinity, instead of redefining it. Rejecting masculinity encourages people to question gender socialization and helps males define themselves as human beings. Transcending masculinity is more effective than redefining it, because it holds all men accountable for male violence against women, instead of outlining a group of "good" men and "bad" men. Jensen says the feminist/anti-pornstitution movement must continue to hold men accountable; redefining manhood isn't as effective as transcending/rejecting manhood. Transcending manhood helps males define themselves as humans... do you understand what I'm saying?

It's a cool book so far. Robert Jensen gave me a free copy when I spoke to him in person. I think it will be officially out in September.
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Postby rich » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:29 pm

Forgot this section wasn't private.
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Postby elfeminista » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:23 pm

Bluecoat, that *was* what I was saying...Robert Jensen did not invent that. Lesbian Separatist Mary Daly daly wrote about this in her reference to a 'biophilic brotherhood' and other instances in her writing, and Catharine Mackinnon also left the door open for males to realize this type of transcendance.

Not to put Jensen down in any way.I appreciate his work.

So to answer the question, yes I do understand.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby gerry » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:07 pm

well, re-defining is out, but "transcending" doesn't exactly do it for me either. has a kind of religious aura about it as in a transcendent god or transcending one's body. have no word for it but i think in terms of aligning oneself with women or in living outside of patriarchy (male supremacy, to be more accurate)

presently going through another one of my drop out phases as regards membership in pro-feminist groups. why do they all seem so damn liberal and so un-radical not only in their thinking and positions but also in their manner of operating and general close-mindedness to anything but the most acceptable expressions. i swear if i mention either prostitution or pornography or sexual slavery again, any decision about leaving will have been done for me. (at least i will not have to witness any more glorifications of fathers day--nor all the squirms when i suggest expanding our work)
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Postby elfeminista » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:56 pm

It is not easy , i dont care what you want to call it. call it cheese doodles for all i care.

And i know that it's not easy because of not only males but the reaction of Women as well as males. I have gotten "well your'e not really a man" from women in conversation in the form of some put down. very annoying and disheartening. And then there are the feminists who won't believe you, who think you are full of shit. maybe it is in part because i step on the gas where there is not enough traction, and spin my wheels. or maybe because there are so few guys involved.

Again, it does not help that THERE ARE SO FEW MALES INTERESTED. I KEEP SAYING THIS, BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT
TO BE CENTRAL IN IMPORTANCE.

The day we have a good number of males who "get it" in a fundamental way, and we are able to connect with one another on the basis of a 'brotherhood' that is like a feminist sisterhood, things will begin to look a lot better. Because this has not happened so far I worry about males real commitment. In order that the movement progress with males help, we have to make progress in defining and moving towards a new male epistemology, and new ways of associating with one another. If we are just here for fun and not so that the movement progress then we males are a distraction.

This is really an important way to show alliegeance to Women.

I feel that to do work for feminism *separate* from women is needed and will also help the movement as it will increase
Women's time with other feminist Women and Womenspace.

Males take a big about of energy and mental overhead, away from women in these palces online and IRL. we can change that.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby gerry » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:48 pm

[color=darkblue]It's the LIBERALISM that gnaws away at my spirit. This is THE ideology and, in the end, i have no stomach for it. I would rather be a monk than be a liberal. How many times must i be reminded that "most men are fine," or that "the youth are our future" ( so we need to do youth work) Maybe the goddam yute don't want to be worked on--does anyone ever think of that?

No wonder Dworkin chose writing over group membership.

I do think men are interested, but apparently in a liberal way---for, it seems, all the pro-feminist men's groups--if you scratch their surface-- are found to be liberal. All in the name of reaching people, of course. In other words, radicalism is either for some kind of blue blood elite, or the divisive (also called outsider in some contexts).
[/color]
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Postby elfeminista » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:09 pm

color means passion, and i think passion is the one thing we need more than anything within RF male circles.

I am only talking about males being interested in a radical feminist way. liberals are patriarchist males. That is why we identify with RF. RF puts Women first.

But the youth are our future. We just need enough people who know the real story to organize and act.
also, i am sure that all of males here know its not about guilt. It's about change not guilt, which seems to be what liberal males are concerned with, and equally points to the patriarchal underpinnings of liberalism.

What Women Want us to do=
To stop men from doing crimes of violence against them.this includes of course rape prostitution and porn.

For us to support equal pay for equal work.

Help empower women politically.

To begin to conceptualize ourselves as not the subject interacting with an object but as a fellow humans communicating ..that is to change our perceptions and modes of behaviour.

to share maintenance and responsabilities in domestic environments.

to this end males can get together


Why does it feel like males dont want to take that step/ for thousands of years Women have been a support dreams
for MALR culture, male society, male dreams.

So what the hell is so wrong about being explicit in saying that in order to END this insanity, it is time to try to develop a feminist male epistemology .

Do we have to wait until, as you said at the begining of this thread, Women form enough feminist institutions with power that males have to change themselves around them????

Dammm, what losers males would be then.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby gerry » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:40 pm

i mean "youth" here like apple pie--which is the way it is often used--you know the us-them thing. they are a discrete sector that needs reaching by wizened MALE MENTORS, one more version of the father--as if they needed that. i don't do the father role, thank you.

can you join any nyc pro-feminist men's group without checking your radical credentials at the door? i mean you live in a greater metro area of 15 million or so, so you wd think that were possible. is it?

hey, reform is fine, and i'm all for it, which is why i join groups (it's preferable to monastic life) but one cannot subsist on mickey mouse fare for very long.
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Postby elfeminista » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:43 pm

"i mean "youth" here like apple pie--which is the way it is often used--you know the us-them thing. they are a discrete sector that needs reaching by wizened MALE MENTORS, one more version of the father--as if they needed that. i don't do the father role, thank you."

Sisters mentor one another all the time, and that is because this is all about caring. We have to learn to care about the collective as part of it, that is why I fear males lack of interest in connecting with one another. i find it very unsettling that males do not get into the movement's deeper understanding.

Radical feminist Women **care** about the community,
and i for one have been humbled and deeply impressed about this aspect of feminist conciousness. rather tha the father role, let us think of the brother role in a brotherhood that is modeled on feminist sisterhood.



"can you join any nyc pro-feminist men's group without checking your radical credentials at the door? i mean you live in a greater metro area of 15 million or so, so you wd think that were possible. is it?"

No, this is why it is time to build one. even if there are 5 of us. Mentoring people is surely part of what we must do. This is a movement for the long haul,
and we must change our ways in a positive way.

"hey, reform is fine, and i'm all for it, which is why i join groups (it's preferable to monastic life) but one cannot subsist on mickey mouse fare for very long."


Find good people, agree on the task, create a cadre. begin to care for one another and yes, know that we are determined to be different. Nowadays men snicker when I tell them I am a feminist. someday they won't snicker anymore.The men will say to themselves, 'oK there is another male that believes in that political movement, now there are quite a few of them, I wonder why".
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby gerry » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:45 am

i don't know... i just don't like the idea of outsiders coming into schools and telling students what they really need to know. the edu system should be doing this and if not, let teachers/students correct this.(smoking, drugs, sex experts)

mentoring to me almost always means go-between-ism. the mentor represents some higher authority who doesn't have the time or can't be bothered so create mentors to oversee and teach the novice. it is a patronizing kind of system. kinda like guardian angel as spy or father---or "mother"

as to "brotherhood" doesn't patriarchy start in the family and isn't it built on brotherhood and fatherhood. this gets my goat because pro-feminist org's love to use these family terms to personalize their work. which gives me the shivers. "brotherhood " reminds me of "homeland"---brings one back to "transcendence" where this all started
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Postby elfeminista » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:39 am

you ae a little too cantankerous for me.

i said a brotherhood that was modeled on a feminist sisterhood.

Answers like that just make me want to give up.
They make things unbearable.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby gerry » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:20 am

not about you.... about my current relationship with my men's group---which is a downer.

but as to sisterhood... how can the term brotherhood ever be compared to it. one is a response to the oppression of the other. (if you are using all these terms in an everyday, practical sort of way, then that's not the way i am commenting on them)

i truly think you wd do better in my group than i do, because they do use terms like "mentor" and "brotherhood" and "father's day" etc rather freely.

as to 5 men in nyc that you need to begin a group... i wd say 2 would suffice, but i wonder why you have been recruiting men here if you mean there---none of us are within commuting distance of the city??

enjoy the sunshine
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Postby elfeminista » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:03 pm

Read Mary Daly (my mantra).

I am not interested in father's day, everyday is fathers day. It is about *leaving* the state of cofusion that is patriarchy. It is about having had *enough* , we dont want anymore of this, vomiting the poison reading the words of the foresisters and ejoying the sun in a new way.

"Set fire to the old hypocrisies. Let the light of the burning building scare the nightingales and incarnadine the willows. And let the daughters of educated men dance round the fire and heap armful upon armful of dead leaves upon the flames. And let their mothers lean from the upper windows and cry “Let it blaze! Let it blaze! For we have done with this education!”
-virginia woolf, Three guineas.

Reaching for new words and giving new meaning to words. why is this not inside of us/ I know it is inside of me. is it a desire to hold on to something, something rotten, yet "known"?
For goodness sake, give me the unknown,

We need to embark on a path to becoming something new
and it can be done.

edited to add that the place where i picked up the quote from Woolf someone had added an idiotic= ["before presumably being burned to death"]- sorry did not mean to include that.
Last edited by elfeminista on Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby Andrew » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:34 pm

Mentoring is a problem concept to me too. But if you're going to, like a teacher, measure your success in making yourself unnecessary, not like these old hands that won't tell the new hire anything because they are worried about job security.
Maybe encourager, resource person would be a more helpful direction?? Doesn't seem so hierarchical to me.
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Postby gerry » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:31 am

Andrew wrote:Mentoring is a problem concept to me too. But if you're going to, like a teacher, measure your success in making yourself unnecessary, not like these old hands that won't tell the new hire anything because they are worried about job security.
Maybe encourager, resource person would be a more helpful direction?? Doesn't seem so hierarchical to me.


Methinks no word for it, because it's a dubious position--a kind of objectified form. An intermediary is selected by some authority (often vague) to act upon some newbie---kinda like an object acting upon an object--and almost always teaching conformity. The key here being the loss of agency to both the mentor and his or her charge. In other words this concept, undermines agency---which is so critical to women or to any other oppressed groups.
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Postby elfeminista » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:40 am

I am quoting myself-
"Women's work in the movement is different than male's work. While we have to educate ourselves and be there in solidarity and friendship it is clear that our sisters don't need us to do the things that they are more than qualified to do and for which they have already created an infrastructure and a methodology. Women do not really expect us to help heal the rifts dividing Women, for example (these rifts which are caused by patriarchy (us)in the first place), to be theorists, in short to become involved in the aspects of feminist discourse that we do not belong in. "

And now to quote Charlotte Bunch-

"Feminism is a movement for the liberation of women which, because women’s oppression is deeply embedded in everything must necessarily, then be a movement for the transformation of the whole society."

What do we need male agency for within the context of feminism?

We need to learn to unlearn, that is the only way we will be revolutionary.

Now to quote Heart-

about what feminism *is*=
'It is about opposition to subordination and dominance in all of its endless forms: subordination of women to men, of children to adults, of creatures and the earth to human beings. It is about opposing imperialism, colonialism, racism, homophobia, dominance heirarchies of every kind, and every mechanism and device by way of which human beings are dominated and subordinated."

Exactly- If there is a question of methodology on how to bring males to that better place, then perhaps the thing to do is to consult with senior feminists on the direction that should take.

We need to listen and to *do*. Thousands of years of male rule started by male 'ideas"is enough. We should not use feminist theory to come up with reasons why we should not do what we should be doing.
To learn to unlearn, that is what we must do, To fly away from patriarchal insanity we need to think about caring giving and connecting with our true selves.not be male feminist "theorists".
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby Andrew » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:07 am

Yeah, Ok, el. a little theoretical yourself, maybe, unless a senior feminist fed you those lines. But be that as it may , I'm losing the sense of what is iat issue in this discussion.
I came to feminism largely through reading what others kindly posted online. I've learned a lot by reading this and other forums. You are the only person I've attempted to communicate with on any kind of"personal" level. My question is, can I as a man, try to "help" other men who ar groping to a anti-pornstitution position or whatever without being authoritarian about it. I think so, but I also think they need to do a lot on their own by reading, rahter than bothering, feminists. Comment?
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Postby elfeminista » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:16 am

"
Postmodernism is an academic theory, originating in academia with an academic elite, not in the world of women and men, where feminist theory is rooted. "

Catharine Mackinnon.

While this was written as a statement on postmodernism, I think it is useful to use this quote here.
A lot of feminism is really as clear as the nose on your face. The experinces of Women in the real world forms the basis for feminist theory.The facets of patriarchy inform us all the time. Once we decide where our loyalty will be placed and once we read the words that feminists have written and see work that feminists have done, the things that we as males must do become evident, including continueously raising our conciousness towards a healthy communal awareness and new identity. Identity is not the issue, the issue is patriarchal self identification. We males are I believe just as aware of the mechanisms of system of oppression if not more than Women are, and in a way we are daily involved in the business of trying to erase the reality of that oppression from the awareness of women and ourselves. As Catharine Mackinnon wrote, all this is "In the world of women and men". We are the men.


Of course social growth and unlearning is done with guidance when offered. still,one does not Theorize breathing. One does theorize 'god', "country" and 'supremacy' however.
I am not "theorizing". I am living a life.



You are already doing what you are doing, and I support
the anti porn anti prostitution work that you do.
Last edited by elfeminista on Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I was analyzing a phenomenon I am seeing on the internet-- a proliferation of blogs in which the blogger identifies as a radical feminist, but does not seem to embrace the distinctives of radical feminism as we understand the term in the United States.And you know, I think it's okay if they do that, but I also think it's important to say what I said because otherwise (1) herstoric radical feminism gets erased; (2) people new to feminism never hear what herstoric radical feminism really was or is."~ Heart
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Postby Andrew » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:55 am

Well, yes, I think men know a lot more about the oppression of women than they let on; it's a question of facing reality and owning up to it.
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