Paris Hilton in sex ban shocker!

[delphyne]

ArmyofMe, I was quite harsh in that last post. I do feel very strongly about not blaming women for being used by men. Really strongly! But I also know that it's part of patriarchy's plan to train us to attack women in that position so it's a dynamic that is very easy to slip into.

I used to be hard on women and wonder why the hell they let themselves be used by men or pushed around by men or any of the other things that happen to us in this shitty world and the way I finally got out of that mindset was reading Gyn/Ecology by Mary Daly. It probably sounds silly but I'd be happy to send a copy to anyone here who wants one. Maybe it wouldn't have the same effect as it did on me but I think it's a book that every woman should read. It shows the way men have tried to set up this world to destroy and exploit women and how we've been trained to fight against one another (there's a lot more to it than that but that was what I got out of it).

Women being attacked (even if it's Paris Hilton) sets me off, but I don't want to fall out with you (or Soopermouse) about it.

[CoolAunt]

I'd hate to see any disagreements here cause this small but growing group of anti-porn activists to break apart. But the number of members online and number of visits appeared to have increased with this and the "UK boob jobs..." discussions. I know that I've enjoyed the discussions and have checked back frequently to follow them.

Controversy can be good for increasing message board traffic, which is good for this board as long as we continue to check the Actions forum, participate, and not forget that even when we disagree about other things, we're all in agreement that pornstitution must be faught and fighting pornstitution is our bond.

[Army Of Me]

Warning - contains triggering link - I have not looked at the link yet, but it's to do with the sport and has graphic images apparently, and highly misogynistic text.

Also, my 'puter is playing up big-time so if I disappear (don't all cheer at once) for awhile, this will be the reason!

Right - I did say I was done on this but due to an email I opened this morning (see below), I am bashing out one more here - I think tech probs will force me to be done soon anyway for awhile as stated above - so.... this may be slightly off topic, and was going to post this as a new topic, but there is a relevant theme here I think. Oh what the hell, I'm tying it in here anyway. I was sent this by charliegrrl - I belong to her anti-lads mag yahoo group - here is an email about a new group which supports the daily squirt (sport). Please type the word yahoo in place of the #####. Do this in your browser, and don't click directly from this forum please.

I called this yahoo group, mentioned below, the gender version of the KKK - one day, words like this will be illegal.

Hey guys

A new yahoo group has been set up

http://groups.#####.com/group/daily_sport/

by a guy who has emailed my blog- 'daily_sport_lover'

It has 11 members so far...

The description on the home page:

"It's Britain's best newspaper. It's serves up a bevvy
of topless totty every day. It sends topless girls
along on workplace visists to keep the workers happy.
It sends busty beauties to your local bar to whack
their t!ts out and cheer people up. It opens it's
pages to amateur hornbags who want to give their
hooters an airing in a national newspaper.

And it's the only newspaper to feature a nipple count!

And feminsts campaign against it!

Join up and show your support!

We also have links to vids that'll appeal to the guys
who like the Sport.

AND we'll be taking the lusting after bimbos to a
whole new level - in both CUNTENT (ooops!) and
ATTITUDE! Just right for the 21st Century.
So if your fed up with boring cheesecake, join up!
Because here you'll get B1TCHES the way YOU want
'em!!!!" (End)

(From Charlie) You can access the messages without joining- it is
full of posts of porn and very degrading videos/images

This is war

x

Now, back to the PH issue - I am not "attacking" her - I'm attacking the ethos which helped to create someone like her and many others - No, I hope I'm not falling out with anyone, but I still have not heard the alternative to what criticism of the products of pornification (sexualised women) would be. Delphyne, I understand what you are saying, but I am surprised that you now think I am only "picking on" PH because of her money - I'm not singling her out at all - whether a woman has money or not - if she is a "product" of patriarchal misogynisitc asshole culture, that is what I am criticising - what are we to do? Again, do we hold her up as a feminist icon? A martyr of sorts? Do we sing her praises? Do we just keep quiet? Cuz that's what the misogynists would want us to do. And they are criticising her from an entirely different angle. And yes, I am aware of the divide and conquer principles of misogyny. With this issue, it seems that feminists are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Perhaps my cynical writing style seemed harsh - perhaps I need to work on that and be more aware, but I'm not going to shut up about men making women into products, and then not criticise the product at some point. There's an old saying - "porn silences". And this is one reason why. It's set up so that you can't criticise your own sex - clever. So, the dividing line needs to be made about what is being critiqued. That's why I keep saying I am attacking the system that creates this type of "celeb/amateur porn star" for women to aspire to.

Do we hold the women in the sport up as icons? Not dare criticise? There has to be some sort of criticism of the "product" - there is a difference, because with pornification, the only end-result is the product of a sexualised woman - so that as a product must be held of for purposes of comparison - it's unfortunate but true.

I am not trying to divide or upset anyone - but I think that defending PH is just not right either - it's nothing to do with her money - as an individual case, this might have a different angle because of her money, but the basics are the same.

And as far as Pink's video, I think it portrays that there is some sort of backlash starting- I hope so - her mickey taking of the instant-blow-up-boobs-in-case-of-emergency - c'mon - it's funny, and humour used to make a point- the images she was emulating were the images of a male fantasy, a product, and deserved to be brought down a peg or two, overdue in my opinion, in the case of, yes PH, and particularly Daisy DDs Duke - it was so refreshing to see something so different from the usual hiphopimp (my hybrid word!) sexeee bootylishus crap all over the place, with endless greased, writhing shiny female flesh for the visual consumption of men, and probably for the real consumption, during the making of such videos in real life. Her video seemed to be one lone voice of dissent against the male-defined music/vid industry, sticking a finger up to the pimps and male-control freaks who create this production conveyer belt of endless sexualised wank fodder (women as products)in music videos, and the permeation of the effect of music videos into real life - the boobs and the bulimia issues. She couldn't really call it "Clever, Smart Girls Who are Playing the System, Within the Strict Limitations of the Male-Defined Music/Video Industry"? Again, what is the alternative?

You can't really defend any of these types of women, that's what men do. Do you see my point?

What we are trying to do, (one of the things) as far as I can see here at g-berg, is to educate women about opening their eyes to their own subjugation (as products to consume), not to keep perpetuating it by participating in all forms of media, and being held up as male-fantasy icons, and also icons for young women. Women as products, we have to criticise, cuz men won't do it. And we can't stay silent, cuz that's what men want, we can't praise them, cuz that's what men do too.

[soopermouse]

Delphyne
There is a good reason to criticizing PH. And that, because we don't want her becoming a role model, now do we?

And unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to find a lot of compassion for her, because it's hard to see someone who uses sexism to promote herself as a victim. Especially someone who does not even have the excuse of poverty for it.

Poor PH is a victim? She has all the advantages of a poster child of the Patriarchy, and I am not sure that is oppression. So no, I will not be burning incense at the altar of saint paris... or Caitlin Flanagan for the other side of the patriarchy poster.

I quite enjoyed the PH episode of South park. It is well and spot on, unfortunately.

[delphyne]

"You can't really defend any of these types of women, that's what men do. Do you see my point?"

Men don't defend these women. Men hate these women, they might masturbate over them but they think they are "whores" and "bitches" and are happy to call them as such. If you think men have any respect for Paris Hilton or any other woman in her position you are mistaken.

None of those comments I quoted of yours and Soopermouse's there were an attack on the system that creates the Paris Hiltons of this world, they were an attack on her as a person.

And I don't think you are attacking her because she is rich, I think you are attacking her because she is female. That's the point I'm making - going after her in the way and you and Soopermouse is doing is misogynistic. Calling *any* woman stupid for being used by men is misogynistic, calling *any* woman promiscuous is misogynistic, calling *any* woman manipulative is misogynistic. These are all sexist stereotypes that are constantly used against us.

And it's simply not true to argue as you are doing, Soopermouse that these types of criticisms will stop her becoming a role-model. Most of the reason she is in the public eye is that she is a whipping-girl for misogynists to vent their spleen on. Feminists should not be doing the same. How can we criticise anybody else for calling women stupid whores if we are doing the same ourselves?

[soopermouse]

"You can't really defend any of these types of women, that's what men do. Do you see my point?"

Men don't defend these women. Men hate these women, they might masturbate over them but they think they are "whores" and "bitches" and are happy to call them as such. If you think men have any respect for Paris Hilton or any other woman in her position you are mistaken.

None of those comments I quoted of yours and Soopermouse's there were an attack on the system that creates the Paris Hiltons of this world, they were an attack on her as a person.

And I don't think you are attacking her because she is rich, I think you are attacking her because she is female. That's the point I'm making - going after her in the way and you and Soopermouse is doing is misogynistic. Calling *any* woman stupid for being used by men is misogynistic, calling *any* woman promiscuous is misogynistic, calling *any* woman manipulative is misogynistic. These are all sexist stereotypes that are constantly used against us.

And it's simply not true to argue as you are doing, Soopermouse that these types of criticisms will stop her becoming a role-model. Most of the reason she is in the public eye is that she is a whipping-girl for misogynists to vent their spleen on. Feminists should not be doing the same. How can we criticise anybody else for calling women stupid whores if we are doing the same ourselves?

Delphyne, as stated before, I ham having a hell of a lot of problems with seeing PH as a victim. Class privilege, look privilege, she is a person who has made a career out of being sexually promiscuous, and a business out of that as well. I don't see who has forced her to do that and what repercussions she would have suffered for not adopting this image, and as such I cannot see her in the same victim category with a poor girl who really does not have any other option.

The fact that she has a sister who has not taken the same path, although equally skinny, blonde and rich, tells me that PH made a choice. A choice that has proven to be profitable for her, even in the "career" as "actress" and "singer" that she supposedly had chosen. We cannot even start by assuming that "she did not know what she was doing" since she is rich and educated.

The sleazy image is obviously a chosen one, from which she benefits. She is not a "little girl" pornified by someone else, she is a versed business woman that had made a profitable choice for herself. Whilst I am willing to accept the alleged "she did not know about the porn tape" story, there is nothing in her own trajectory afterwards to show any even remote try to distance herself from that image. On the contrary. What is the difference between her and any other pornification industry peddlers as far as the clients go?

Do you seriously think that the mysoginists hate her? I don't. Because she is everything they want her to be. She is the role model that they are pushing onto the little girl of today to prepare her to be the sex object of tomorrow. And this is the path that she chose for herself.

As far as I am concerned, she is another pornification peddler, and I refuse to give her carte blanche because of her gender.

[CoolAunt]

Whoa! I think I may have had a light bulb moment here.

Calling *any* woman stupid for being used by men is misogynistic, calling *any* woman promiscuous is misogynistic, calling *any* woman manipulative is misogynistic. These are all sexist stereotypes that are constantly used against us.

What I get from this is that it's possible that some women are stupid, promiscuous, and/or manipulative but that it does women no good when other women label them as such because it's like jumping on the misogynist band wagon. All it does is give misogynists another example of how all women are those things and how we even know and agree that we are.

???

[Army Of Me]

Again, you are taking far too seriously the comments that we have made about PH - and taken them out of context - - we aren't going to agree on this and so I'm not posting any more after this. Going around in circles really, and we will have to agree to disagree.

PH has a right to her life, and we have a right to say what our opinion is of her and her chosen career/image. Yes, some of the language is cynical, but as women, we have a right to be.

You are picking apart everything to try to find fault - when the whole picture is what we are looking at.

OK - and when I said men defend these women, right - deep breath - I will spell it out - men defend their right to think whatever they like about these kinds of women - they defend their right to make her or break her, as she exists, they will defend her. They love women like her, if they didn't why would there be so many like her?

Again, what is your alternative solution to criticism of men's power to create women as products? How would you express your opinion of the products?

Again, hopefully, getting back to the original theme, she will emerge after one year as a woman with new values and be able to share them with her admirers. But I'm not holding my breath. I hope she does though. That would be great - fine and dandy - super dooper!

I am really going to think twice now before ever posting a new topic.

[soopermouse]

I am really going to think twice now before ever posting a new topic.

no, don't

[Army Of Me]

heheh - ok - maybe 3 times

[annared]

Army Of Me. Ye Gods! That Daily sport site is a nasty piece of work. The picture that comes up when you first log on says it all. *Daily Sport readers have serious psychological problems* We have to get those b******* off main view (preferably made into paper Mache dick splints, but that is not going to happen…sadly.) That picture thing of a woman, is seriously taking the piss, it’s not even sexy, glamorous or alluring, it’s trying to make women look like jokes. Big stupid jokes with big false plastic tits. Whoever said, “a picture says a thousand words” had this one in mind. I’m armed with a friend and a couple of bottles of wine for tonight and we’re going to have a real good look. Can’t stomach it sober.

[Army Of Me]

Luckily, I am being protected by the goddess of technology today - and maybe for some days to come - I am having what I think are connection probs with my pc - it seems to be all-or-nothing - it took 30 minutes a while ago to log on - keep having to shut down, re-boot, and when I am on, my screen keeps freaking out with dialogue boxes opening themselves up. Weird.

So....I will not even attempt to download any of the squirt-a-licious videos on the squirt's site. Thank you goddess tech.

It's things like that which make you see just how fucked up men's heads are about women - you look at a man, you might even know him well, and you just go "has he...does he?" (seen this stuff and masturbated over it - the answer is possibly quite likely). I have had men say to me that they think the squirt is a horrible paper, but it's the same principle that a lot of men have with their view of women - he can think she's horrible, but he'll still fuck her, no probs. He can think the sport, sorry, squirt, is ing, but he'll still wank over it.

I passed a group of builders today sitting outside for their tea-break, and I just made a point of going wide around them, and if I'd caught one of them gawping (which still happens on occasion these days - I don't know, I steer clear as poss from such situations now), I would've done a finger-down-throat rabfo gesture. What're they gonna do? Beat up a woman on the street with everyone looking - nope, just in their heads. Creeps. Sick squirting sad wank machines.

"And so, what do you do?"

"I'm a builder"

"oh fab"

"What do you do in your spare time?"

"Read the Squirt and wank".

"Errr.... any other hobbies?"

"Yep - going to see hookers and strippers"

"That's just great - so you work, jerk, squirt, fuck and lurk"

"Yep dat's just about it - I'm a happy chappy - dawnt need nuffink else"

[annared]

That's just great - so you work, jerk, squirt, fuck and lurk"

Army can i use that one please? I love it! Full anon credits given of course. Hope your P.C. gets its lurgy sorted out. I'll miss your *floral* rants. Hehe

[delphyne]

Whoa! I think I may have had a light bulb moment here.

What I get from this is that it's possible that some women are stupid, promiscuous, and/or manipulative but that it does women no good when other women label them as such because it's like jumping on the misogynist band wagon. All it does is give misogynists another example of how all women are those things and how we even know and agree that we are.

???

Exactly. It plays into the hands of men. They want to create images of women as being stupid, promiscuous and manipulative so we get women in the media being portrayed as all those things, whether they are or not is pretty much beside the point. But it is incredibly dumb to join in the misogynistic hate-fest.

[delphyne]

Do you seriously think that the mysoginists hate her? I don't. Because she is everything they want her to be. She is the role model that they are pushing onto the little girl of today to prepare her to be the sex object of tomorrow. And this is the path that she chose for herself.

Yes they fucking hate her, that's why they do what they do to her. If you can't see that you really aren't paying attention.

And it is the path *they* chose for her. In fact you contradict yourself right there - you acknowledge that she is the role model that "they" (the patriarchy) are pushing but when she supposedly chooses this path suddenly it's her fault. Or do you think Paris Hilton came up with the blonde bimbo persona all by herself?

[soopermouse]

And it is the path *they* chose for her. In fact you contradict yourself right there - you acknowledge that she is the role model that "they" (the patriarchy) are pushing but when she supposedly chooses this path suddenly it's her fault. Or do you think Paris Hilton came up with the blonde bimbo persona all by herself?

The blonde bimbo persona has been "created" a long time ago. So she did not need to come up with it herself. The question is whether she chose it for herself, and my belief is that she did.

Because she is making a serious profit out of it.

As far as the hatred goes... if they would indeed hate her... would she be the sweetheart of all media and get the exposure she's getting and be sold as the ultimate role model to little girls?

patriarchy is NOT stupid, Delphyne. I am sure it hates PH like it hates aeach and any of us. HOWEVER, for the purpose that she is serving, I do believe that PH is quite a valuable asset to the patriarchy, and treated as such.

By comparison, Tara Reid, equally blonde and supposedly equally promiscuous, is getting a whole lot less attention and focus from the same patriarchy, because she is a lot less likely to be perceived as a role model ( possibly due to the alleged substance abuse).

But because TR is not rich and she did actually HAVE to appear promiscuous for the purpose of her career, she is being pushed into mediocrity.

[Army Of Me]

Army can i use that one please? I love it! Full anon credits given of course. Hope your P.C. gets its lurgy sorted out. I'll miss your *floral* rants. Hehe

As you are goddess, and have asked nicely, yes you may!

[delphyne]

Again, you are taking far too seriously the comments that we have made about PH - and taken them out of context - - we aren't going to agree on this and so I'm not posting any more after this. Going around in circles really, and we will have to agree to disagree.

I didn't take them out of context. You were using sexist insults against her, and I'm not taking them too seriously.

PH has a right to her life, and we have a right to say what our opinion is of her and her chosen career/image. Yes, some of the language is cynical, but as women, we have a right to be.

I'm sorry but I don't think anybody has the right to be sexist, even if they are women. You can say you don't like the career she has chosen but you and Soopermouse did a lot more than that, you were jumping on the hate train.

You are picking apart everything to try to find fault - when the whole picture is what we are looking at.

You've been saying that nobody had said anything misogynisitc about Hilton. I was pointing out that that's exactly what happened.

OK - and when I said men defend these women, right - deep breath - I will spell it out - men defend their right to think whatever they like about these kinds of women - they defend their right to make her or break her, as she exists, they will defend her. They love women like her, if they didn't why would there be so many like her?

If they didn't hate her why would there be so many like her? You're asking the wrong questions. Men don't push women into acting like Paris Hilton or Jenna Jameson or the Girls Gone Wild because they love them - it's because they hate them and us and they hold us all in contempt. Is that was this is really about? That you think that these women are getting some kind of loving attention from men? Men love hating women. That's the only love involved here.

Again, what is your alternative solution to criticism of men's power to create women as products? How would you express your opinion of the products?

Women aren't products, they are people. Just because a man has tried to turned a woman into a commodity doesn't mean that suddenly gives you the right to call her vacuous, promiscuous or manipulative. My solution is to criticise men's power, to criticise the men that do this, the men that create these women and consume them.

Again, hopefully, getting back to the original theme, she will emerge after one year as a woman with new values and be able to share them with her admirers. But I'm not holding my breath. I hope she does though. That would be great - fine and dandy - super dooper!.

I hope she will too.

I am really going to think twice now before ever posting a new topic.

If you are attacking women you probably will come up against some opposition. Feminism isn't some sort of moral hierarchy where there are "good" women at the top who see through all the sexism thrown at us and refuse to go along with it, and "bad" women at the bottom who haven't so we can safely slag them off. We're all living under the same system and some women are going to end up being used in the way Paris Hilton is or be in her position. That's the nature of male supremacy.

[Army Of Me]

Men love hating women. That's the only love involved here.

My solution is to criticise men's power, to criticise the men that do this, the men that create these women and consume them.

There you go.

Really, just let's put this to bed

ps - apologies to any builders I may have insulted with my comments about their buying into a misogynistic culture not of their making. It's tough being macho. Poor victims.

[delphyne]

There you go.

Really, just let's put this to bed

The problem is we're not in disagreement about what men do to women, we're in disagreement about how to respond to the women they consume.

But I agree it is probably time to let this particular argument end.